Questions about Metronome

[Lownote38]

Thanks for your response.

I truly believe that your or your drummer's timing is perfect.
Good for you.
I just did not like your statement not to use the metronome.
I've just imagined a situation where your drummer secretly from you decides to play with the click.
Would you be able to immediately figure it out?
Would you be scared?
Would you be very upset?

What if you have an audition (unknown band/new stuff)
1. without your drummer that you got accustomed to and
2. playing with the click?

P.S. I started listening to Jeff Berlin in the 80's. That time, he did not talk against the metronomes.

On the other hand, I completely agree with Jeff Berlin when he says, "you can't play what you don't know".
Also, maybe there is some truth about the "transition from quantity to quality."

I would personally rather play with a drummer who doesn't need a click unless it is forced upon them.
I also don't just have one drummer that I play with, and I am comfortable with all of them (click or no click). Even the terrible ones.
Yes, I can easily play with a click track any time, so I don't think an audition would be a problem (it never has been).
I can definitely tell when a drummer is "secretly" playing with a click because the tencency is to become tense and unnatural sounding like a machine.
A truly great drummer can play either way.
I don't advocate metronomes because I find them to be unnecessary for practicing. I can slow things down or speed things up as needed when I'm learning something new without having to stop and change the bpm on the metronome.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I would personally rather play with a drummer who doesn't need a click unless it is forced upon them...
I can definitely tell when a drummer is "secretly" playing with a click because the tencency is to become tense and unnatural sounding like a machine.

What would be the name of the drummer who is not comfortable playing with the metronome?

Yes, I can easily play with a click track any time, so I don't think an audition would be a problem (it never has been).

I'm a very gullible person. You say that you can play with a click - and I believe you. As I said before, I believe that you have perfect timing.
I got "forcibly" hooked on the metronome/click/drum machine in the late 80's. It took me about two-three weeks to get really comfortable playing with the drum machine/click, but after that, it became very natural to me.

What's more, while playing with a click and "great drummers, who were not afraid or tense or sounding unnatural like a machine,
1. I was able to truly develop that sense of "groove",
2. I was able to experiment with all those note dimensions, "playing on the beat, behind the beat and in front of the beat", "in the pocket/deep pocket", because my drummer had perfect timing (immovable).

Playing with the click, recording it, and analyzing the recorded stuff tremendously helped other musicians also.
Let's say, you can play the proper notes (bass, rhythm guitar, keyboard, horn section, etc...) from "Earth, Wind, and Fire", or "Mezzoforte", or "Power of Tower" with professional musicians but the result is "kind of muddy".
Only when all those musicians were able to play their lines comfortable with the click, then we were able to refine our "groove" - all those layers of lines working together like the best quality swiss watch.


In addition, all those unnecessary dialogues like,
"you are rushing",
"your timing is off",
"faster/slower", etc... were completely eliminated while playing with the click.

A truly great drummer can play either way.

Now, we are talking; therefore, with your permission, I will revise my expression, "serious drummer" to "a truly great drummer", in order to "unconfuse" you.

I can slow things down or speed things up as needed when I'm learning something new without having to stop and change the bpm on the metronome.

I'm scared - you sound like me:

I can practice with the metronome/drum machine and easily change tempo - increase it, decrease it, and get back to original tempo with the metronome going on.
AND THE METRONOME/TIMING DEVICE DOES NOT KILL ANY (OR IF I HAVE ANY) MUSICAL IDEAS.
If I suddenly have any new rhythm ideas while playing with the metronome, I simple disregard the metronome or turn it off,
but
I don't know any instances where practicing with a metronome has harmed anyone's musical development.

What's more, practicing with timing device only helped me.

 

[mambo4]

Metronome practice improves tempo accuracy.
This is useful for beginners or players of any skill who find difficulty at nailing the downbeat in certain situations.
Blanket recommendations to avoid a metronome, or to always use one, are equally foolish.

 

[Lownote38]

What would be the name of the drummer who is not comfortable playing with the metronome?



I'm a very gullible person. You say that you can play with a click - and I believe you. As I said before, I believe that you have perfect timing.
I got "forcibly" hooked on the metronome/click/drum machine in the late 80's. It took me about two-three weeks to get really comfortable playing with the drum machine/click, but after that, it became very natural to me.

What's more, while playing with a click and "great drummers, who were not afraid or tense or sounding unnatural like a machine,
1. I was able to truly develop that sense of "groove",
2. I was able to experiment with all those note dimensions, "playing on the beat, behind the beat and in front of the beat", "in the pocket/deep pocket", because my drummer had perfect timing (immovable).

Playing with the click, recording it, and analyzing the recorded stuff tremendously helped other musicians also.
Let's say, you can play the proper notes (bass, rhythm guitar, keyboard, horn section, etc...) from "Earth, Wind, and Fire", or "Mezzoforte", or "Power of Tower" with professional musicians but the result is "kind of muddy".
Only when all those musicians were able to play their lines comfortable with the click, then we were able to refine our "groove" - all those layers of lines working together like the best quality swiss watch.


In addition, all those unnecessary dialogues like,
"you are rushing",
"your timing is off",
"faster/slower", etc... were completely eliminated while playing with the click.




Now, we are talking; therefore, with your permission, I will revise my expression, "serious drummer" to "a truly great drummer", in order to "unconfuse" you.



I'm scared - you sound like me:

I can practice with the metronome/drum machine and easily change tempo - increase it, decrease it, and get back to original tempo with the metronome going on.
AND THE METRONOME/TIMING DEVICE DOES NOT KILL ANY (OR IF I HAVE ANY) MUSICAL IDEAS.
If I suddenly have any new rhythm ideas while playing with the metronome, I simple disregard the metronome or turn it off,
but
I don't know any instances where practicing with a metronome has harmed anyone's musical development.

What's more, practicing with timing device only helped me.

I have met many "drummers" who cannot stay with a click. Maybe they shouldn't be "drummers."
You mentioned Tower Of Power. I'm pretty sure that they didn't play to a click to get that tightness. It was playing with each other that did that. I've played tons of Tower of Power and none of us used a metronome or a click. Anything that I've heard with a groove (maybe our definitions are different), does not involve a click. Castles Made Of Sand by Hendrix is a great example to me. It has a great groove, and nearly doubles in speed from beginning to end. It didn't bother anyone then, and I doubt it was intentional on the part of Mitch Mitchell.
I don't subscribe to "never use a metronome", but stand more on the side of "you don't NEED to use one".
If I don't have a real drummer available and want to record a demo, a click track is necessary to make MIDI tracks line up right, so I use a click in that sense. Once the drums are programmed, the click gets turned off, though.
You and I are similar in that we can deviate from a metronome if we get an idea or something, but for me, the metronome isn't there to ignore in the first place. I could certainly ignore it if it was, though.
I think I learn the most through application, meaning that my timing and grooves were solidified by playing with people. Playing with people is much different than sitting and playing alone, and it's where I apply what I learn.
Unlike Mr. Berlin, I don't and won't scoff at those who use a metronome for practicing, but I can say that I feel it's not necessary.

 

[Lownote38]

Metronome practice improves tempo accuracy.
This is useful for beginners or players of any skill who find difficulty at nailing the downbeat in certain situations.
Blanket recommendations to avoid a metronome, or to always use one, are equally foolish.

I advocate avoiding the metronome if you can, and certainly don't advocate using one all the time. I didn't need one, but others might.
At this point, I can feel if a drummer is slowing down, or speeding up (in a live context without a click track). I can subliminally get them back to a steady tempo by pulling or pushing them. Play behind the beat, and they will slow down. Play ahead, and they will speed up. Most of the time, they don't even know I'm doing that, but it's part of our job as musicians.
It's everyone's collective responsibility to keep the tempo and groove together.

 

[SidMau]

Learn how to work with one and learn how to do so without. You may be playing with a live band, you may be recording to a click track. Both are very useful skills.

 

[Lownote38]

Learn how to work with one and learn how to do so without. You may be playing with a live band, you may be recording to a click track. Both are very useful skills.

Indeed! That's a good point, but without ever having learned with a metronome, I am able to follow a click with no problem. I think it really just varies from person to person.

 

[basskababble]

I'm gonna read the rest of this later but in my mind a metronome is a tool for me to get out of my head. I'm not trying to achieve perfection, I'm trying to achieve consistency. When I get to a drummer I'm more able to find the pocket... because they're not my pants.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I didn't need one, but others might.

That what I wanted to hear from an experienced bass player.

At this point, I can feel if a drummer is slowing down, or speeding up (in a live context without a click track). I can subliminally get them back to a steady tempo by pulling or pushing them. Play behind the beat, and they will slow down. Play ahead, and they will speed up. Most of the time, they don't even know I'm doing that, but it's part of our job as musicians.

I think you touched a very important point that probably needs more discussions.

Let's say you, as a seasoned bass player with "perfect timing"
noticed that your drummer is speeding up and started playing "behind the beat" in order for your "emotional" drummer to slow down.
To what extend would you use your "behind the beat" playing without making your and the drummer's "duel" visible to other musicians or even the audience?

What if you think that your drummer is speeding up,
but the rhythm guitar player/keyboard player/vocalist/etc... indicates that the drummer is right?
Who is the winner?

Here at TB, we already figured out that a slight variation in tempo is OK if the whole band is complying with that minute (small) tempo deviation without loosing the "groove".

It's everyone's collective responsibility to keep the tempo and groove together.

"If you’ve got a good drummer, you’ve got a good band.
If you’ve got a great drummer, you’ve got a great band.
If you’ve got a great band and a bad drummer, you’ve got a bad band. It’s the bottom line.
You can have a lousy band and a great drummer and it’s going to feel good.

 

[HCEarwicker]

I'm gonna read the rest of this later but in my mind a metronome is a tool for me to get out of my head. I'm not trying to achieve perfection, I'm trying to achieve consistency. When I get to a drummer I'm more able to find the pocket... because they're not my pants.

Well put.

Rather than tighten you up, surrendering to the discipline of a metronome can help you relax; to let go of any habitual tendencies to rush or drag; to be more flexible.

 

[Dave W]

1. Nobody's perfect, but ALL DRUMMERS (I repeat) , ALL DRUMMERS strive to get as close as possible to that perfect timing and, therefore, they practice with the metronome/timing device.

No, they don't. I know too many drummers that don't practice with a metronome.

Please don't respond with a bunch of bolded statements. It's a little obnoxious.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Please don't respond with a bunch of bolded statements. It's a little obnoxious.

Per your request, I'll start using Italic and/or Underline statements.

What do you think?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I know too many drummers that don't practice with a metronome.

And I know many people who got Rockband video game for Christmas and think they are real guitar players.
In this thread I don't wanna waste my time talking about that kind of "musicians".

 

[Whousedtoplay]

At this point, I can feel if a drummer is slowing down, or speeding up (in a live context without a click track).

I would like to put your words under the microscope.

You used the word, feel, to talk about timing issues with the drummer.

What would be the reason for you to say that the drummer is slowing down?

Your sense of timing?

If so, based on what?

Based on some kind of "metronomic timing"? Coming from where?
(Are you acting like a metronome/click?
But you are against the metronome.)

Based on your "we-are-only-humans" (emotionally fluctuating) timing?

What if you are wrong about your timing?

What if your drummer thinks that you are speeding up?

Who is right?

From your words, "I have also never used a metronome for practicing", but, again from your words,
you are imposing your timing on the drummer/on the whole band.

If your drummer/or any drummer you play with
is constantly practicing with the metronome/click/timing device, can the drummer develop "close to perfect" - metronomic - timing?

Is it good or bad thing in your opinion?

You said, "Keeping time is up to myself and the drummer", but only you have the right to slow down/speed up your drummer.

Next.

I sense some confusion about "being able to play with a click".
Somebody at TB mentioned Steve Gadd's expression,
"The most important thing is to meet at Beat1."
I truly believe that his expression is more or less related to JAZZ MUSIC/JAZZ DRUMMING. (Maybe we could include some punk music also.)

I am more interested what's happening within just one bar(or within the rhythmic patter).
How are those rhythmic layers/rhythmic instrument's lines/notes interacting within just one bar? (or within the rhythmic pattern).
Is that one bar/rhythmic pattern "grooving"?
What happens rhythmically at the first/second/etc... cadence?
And so on....

From my personal experience, a timing device is very helpful and provides very good answers to my questions.

 

[mambo4]

Rather than tighten you up, surrendering to the discipline of a metronome can help you relax; to let go of any habitual tendencies to rush or drag; to be more flexible.

exactly. To argue that it makes your playing "metronomic" ( stiff and mechanical.) is to mislead beginners.

First you learn to identify and follow an external pulse more closely.
If you never practice beyond that, then sure, your playing may suffer, and in that sense the argument is partially valid.

But, with practice, you no longer have to focus your full attention to do follow accurately.
You then learn to internalize that steady pulse, and learn to relax against it.

It's the same with practicing scales or arpeggios or songs:
difficult and requiring lots of focus at first, but with practice , eventually you can stop thinking and relax.

 

[Dave W]

Per your request, I'll start using Italic and/or Underline statements.

What do you think?

Why? It's completely unnecessary.

And I know many people who got Rockband video game for Christmas and think they are real guitar players.
In this thread I don't wanna waste my time talking about that kind of "musicians".

Last I checked it wasn't your thread, and believe me, they're "real" musicians.

EDIT: Sorry... "musicians"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Last I checked it wasn't your thread, and believe me, they're "real" musicians.
No wonder my postings are so long.

I feel really strange by talking to Musicians about drummers practicing with metronomes.

http://www.freedrumlessons.com/articles/practice-tips.php
"Practice with a Metronome

This is another one of those obvious tips for practicing; however I cannot stress it enough! Practicing without a metronome can actually hinder your drumming, as you may learn how to play a drum fill or solo off time! We are drummers; our duty is to keep the band on time. If we cannot even play a solid drum beat or roll on time, then how are we supposed to lead a band?
Also, most tunes recorded professionally are on time, so you can always play along to them instead of a click track. This way practice is a little less boring, being able to listen to your favorite songs while you practice."


http://www.rockdrummingsystem.com/underground/drum-articles/play-with-a-metronome.php
The Metronome is one of the most essential tools used to develop a drummer’s sense of timing. Using a metronome correctly will enable you to always stay in time when you are playing the drums, this way you can stay on time, and keep your band in time as well.
"Most drummers have a difficult time distinguishing when they are “off time”, and will usually be the first to blame the other members of the band. The solution to this is to simply play with a metronome. Setting a metronome, drum machine, or other click track to a certain BPM will not only help the other members of the band, but it will also help you stay on time. Eventually, this will train you to be able to play all sorts of off time beats, unique time signatures, and solos all on time.

Playing or practicing the drums without a metronome can cause more harm than good. Many famous drummers recommend that you never practice without a metronome. If you must practice without a metronome you should be listening to a CD or playing with a band."


http://www.streetdirectory.com/travel_guide/31410/music/why_practice_drums_with_a_metronome.html
Why Practice Drums With a Metronome?
"In order to be an outstanding drummer you'll need to keep good time, and practicing with a metronome can help you do that. A metronome can improve your time keeping almost by magic. And, we know how important time keeping is, particularly for a drummer."


You’ll Suck as a Drummer Unless You Start Using A Metronome!
Invalid Link Removed

"The best drummers in the industry are those who know the pocket, feel the groove and keep good time. It’s all about the clockwork!

To become a better drummer you need to begin to develop your internal clock. The best way to do this is to use a metronome. The metronome (or “click&#8221 is your friend, not your worst enemy.

If you’re already thinking “I’ve never needed a click” – unless you’re Vinnie Colaiuta, you’re wrong! I can’t stress it enough. If there’s only one area where you can be rock solid, let it be this one. Even the music legends will pick a time keeper over a phat filler!

Essentially, you will be a better drummer if you begin to practice with a metronome."

Invalid Link Removed
"This might be obvious but many drummers still don’t do it. Practicing with a metronome is a must! We are drummers; our duty is to keep the band on time. If we cannot even play a solid drum beat or roll on time, then how are we supposed to lead a band? Regular practice with a metronome will greatly enhance your timing and help you to feel the subdivisions better than any other practice aid. I don’t know any top drummer who hasn’t spent time with a metronome."

http://www.tigerbill.com/drumlessons/metronometimeintimeout.htm
"The most useful piece of equipment to any drummer, aside from drums and sticks, is the metronome."

 

[Dave W]

Who are you trying to convince here? I never once said that I don't practice with a metronome (I do) or that drummers or anybody else shouldn't or wouldn't benefit from using one.

I was merely pointing out that your statement of "ALL DRUMMERS practice with a metronome" simply isn't correct.

That's all. You may carry on...

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Who are you trying to convince here? I never once said that I don't practice with a metronome (I do) or that drummers or anybody else shouldn't or wouldn't benefit from using one.

I was merely pointing out that your statement of "ALL DRUMMERS practice with a metronome" simply isn't correct.

That's all. You may carry on...

Thank you for your answer.
I don't try to convince anybody.
I just wanted to make sure that your statement,
"I know too many drummers that don't practice with a metronome"
was not construed as some kind of recommendation for the beginners.

My point is very simple:

I can practice with/or without a timing device,
but
I don't know any instances where practicing with a metronome has harmed anyone's musical development.
What's more, practicing with a timing device only helped/benefited me.
And that is my recommendation to all musicians and the final answer about the metronomes.

 

[Lownote38]

Thank you for your answer.
I don't try to convince anybody.
I just wanted to make sure that your statement,
"I know too many drummers that don't practice with a metronome"
was not construed as some kind of recommendation for the beginners.

My point is very simple:

I can practice with/or without a timing device,
but
I don't know any instances where practicing with a metronome has harmed anyone's musical development.
What's more, practicing with a timing device only helped/benefited me.
And that is my recommendation to all musicians and the final answer about the metronomes.

The final answer for you, maybe, but not for all of us.