Questions about multitrack interfaces and PC recording

[anomalousbass]

Ok I'm not a total noob in this area but up to now I've been recording only one track at a time. I use an M-Audio Fast Track USB interface and various preamps, depending on what I'm recording. But multi-track recording is something totally new to me. I know it takes more computer power and a multi-track interface. But I have a few questions. Here goes...

Ok, let's say I were to get this:

Behringer ADA8000 D/A - A/D Converter.

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"The ADA8000 is a state-of-the-art 8-channel A/D (Analog to Digital) and D/A converter with 8 built-in IMP (Invisible Microphone Preamps) microphone preamps.

The Technical Stuff
Signal conversion in the ADA8000 can take place at either 44.1 or 48 kHz with 24-bit resolution. The ADAT® inputs and outputs can be operated independently, as long as there is an identical wordclock signal. Frequency range is an ultra-wide 10 Hz to 21 kHz at a 48 kHz sampling rate.

The Ins and Outs
Connections are provided for balanced XLR and 1/4" TRS, as well as unbalanced 1/4" TS inputs. Line Out connectors provide either balanced or unbalanced connectivity. Digital I/O is handled via a TOSLINK optical socket, which supports up to eight (8) channels of data."

There are two connections on the back that say "SYNC", one IN and one OUT. I understand that these are used to sync the interface with what's playing on the PC, so that when recording a new track (super awesome solo) is aligned properly with the rest of the audio (rhythm section). Where do these connect? What am I looking for? A soundcard that has these on board? Can someone point me to a product so that I can at least read about it? It's one of those situations where I don't know the answer, and don't really know what to ask either.

Also, would Sonar work with this interface? It only has TOSLink to the computer. Is that a problem?

 

[Kipaste]

The only thing that's state-of-the-art in that behringer is the marketing speech. 300 usd simply will not buy you a good a/d converter and 4 preamps. 48khz is nothing to brag about either. And I believe that thing is primarily designed to be used with digital recorders instead of computers.

What you need is a good audio interface not just a converter with preamps. And you most likely wan't to buy a firewire one especially for multitrack recording. How many tracks do you wan't to record simultaneously? There are dozens of decent units around, but I'm afraid 300 usd won't cut it unless you find a nice used unit. For example: presonus isn't anything stellar, but it would be definately an improvement over the fast track quality wise. The firestudio project can be bought for 500 and has 8 decent preamps and 8 line level inputs.

 

[anomalousbass]

8 tracks simultaneously would be fine. Id like to record a full drum kit, and then later on add in guitar/bass/vocals. I'm not opening a studio or anything, I just want to be able to record ideas with the band.


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Let's look at the FireStudio for a second. My main question is, what does the BNC SYNC connect to? A snazzy sound card?

 

[seamonkey]

You'd need 8 free digital channels on your computer interface.
I'm sure you don't have this.
Otherwise these are quite popular.
The "sync" is for syncing clocks.

 

[anomalousbass]

You'd need 8 free digital channels on your computer interface.
I'm sure you don't have this.
Otherwise these are quite popular.
The "sync" is for syncing clocks.

Ok I'm definitely missing something here. I still don't understand where the other end of the sync cable connects. I thought the FireStudio was the computer interface (hence the firewire). Is there some sort of PCI card (used to eliminate latency) that talks to the FireStudio interface?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Ok I'm definitely missing something here. I still don't understand where the other end of the sync cable connects. I thought the FireStudio was the computer interface (hence the firewire). Is there some sort of PCI card (used to eliminate latency) that talks to the FireStudio interface?

The FireStudio is a a computer audio interface all by itself. You just plug it into a FireWire port.

The Behringer is not. It's a preamp/converter. You would have to plug it into something else to get audio into the computer--for example, a soundcard with an ADAT input, like some of the RMEs (which are expensive).

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Let's look at the FireStudio for a second. My main question is, what does the BNC SYNC connect to? A snazzy sound card?

Check the manual at the PreSonus site. You don't even need to worry about this connector if you're just hooking up 6 to 8 microphones to record a drum set.

 

[Charling]

Ok I'm definitely missing something here. I still don't understand where the other end of the sync cable connects. I thought the FireStudio was the computer interface (hence the firewire). Is there some sort of PCI card (used to eliminate latency) that talks to the FireStudio interface?

agreed with the above the behringer blurb is all hype!

If you bought that, you would also need an actual soundcard, this one a usb, firewire or pci interface with ADAT digital input. in other words, this is not what you are looking for!

there is no need for a pci card to eliminate latency. Latency comes into almost every process of a computer audio system but only a few need to be worried about. The DAW (software) knows how much latency it has playing back audio, and knows how much later it is going to recieve audio that you play, because you set these in the buffer size. As such when you press stop it lines everything up for you, you never even know its out of time!

the only latency to worry about (untill you start to use external signal processors etc) is hearing back what you play. this doesn't directly effect what is recorded, but it is enough to put you off your playing of course! A good interface will be able to get to near-zero latency these days, there is no need for additional hardware, software etc. it is simply down to the speed the computer and the A/D converters can do their job without clicks and pops etc creeping in. so modern interface (soundcard) + fairly fast computer + buffer size set suitably low = latency not really a worry.

The sync cable you are talking about is something entirely different. Digital audio is comprised of samples, for example in the case of 48kHz thats 48'000 samples a second. if you have two digital devices then they both need to have each sample 'lined up' with each other or you again get clicks, pops and distortion when digital data from one device overlaps with what another device call's the 'start' of a new sample..

also, even good 'clocks' in good audio gear will not ACTUALLY stick EXACTLY to the sample rate all the time, they fluctuate slightly, when that happens you get even more errors, sometimes just straight up digital noise even when you are not playing anything! The effect of devices being out of sync can range form barely any audible effect, just a subtle muffling of the overall sound, to full on digital madness!

the behringer is an A/D converter, it can only work in tandem with another digital device hence the word-clock need. When using a single interface you will only need wordclock if you want to use ANOTHER device to convert the signal ready to go into the DIGITAL inputs of your main interface.

hope thats cleared some stuff up! so when you said 'what does the BNC SYNC connect to? A snazzy sound card?' the answer is the BNC is already coming out of your snazzy soundcard! and should be left unnconnected for basic use.

 

[anomalousbass]

Yes, this clears it all up. Thank you all for the info! And no I didn't get any interface yet (besides my trusty M Audio Fast Track).

Would you recommend one? I'd need one 8 tracks or more. I've been looking at the MOTU 828mk3, it seems like a good one.

 

[TVBBass]

I was in a similar situation when I was getting my latest interface...I wanted to the possibilty to do a drum kit so looked for 8 channels of Mic inputs.
The main issue you will find is that most sound cards will 8 analogue inputs will not have 8 preamps. The MOTU 828mk3 is a prime example, it only has two preamps so unless you have a spare 6 Preamps you will have to buy some...as well as the +$700 you'll pay for the motu.
Take a look at the Focusrite SAFFIRE PRO 40. It's firewire with 8 full preamps (and focusrite preamps are some of the best at this price) and at around $500 is a heck of a lot cheaper than the MOTU. Plus Focusrite ship with some pretty useful plugins
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...80129&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=291040282

EDIT: a review from a very trusted UK source: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/focusritesaffirepro40.htm

 

[anomalousbass]

I was in a similar situation when I was getting my latest interface...I wanted to the possibilty to do a drum kit so looked for 8 channels of Mic inputs.
The main issue you will find is that most sound cards will 8 analogue inputs will not have 8 preamps. The MOTU 828mk3 is a prime example, it only has two preamps so unless you have a spare 6 Preamps you will have to buy some...as well as the +$700 you'll pay for the motu.
Take a look at the Focusrite SAFFIRE PRO 40. It's firewire with 8 full preamps (and focusrite preamps are some of the best at this price) and at around $500 is a heck of a lot cheaper than the MOTU. Plus Focusrite ship with some pretty useful plugins
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.co...80129&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=291040282

EDIT: a review from a very trusted UK source: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan09/articles/focusritesaffirepro40.htm

Yep...you're right. I also read the reviews on the MOTU and they weren't so good.

I also found this on amazon for a really good price!:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

 

[TVBBass]

Yep...you're right. I also read the reviews on the MOTU and they weren't so good.

I also found this on amazon for a really good price!:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

Yeah that's the sort of thing you want, the review I've seen suggests the pre-amps let it down a bit....for just $40 more you can get there next model up (usually a couple of hundred more)
http://www.amazon.com/PreSonus-FireStudio-FireWire-Recording-Interface/dp/B000X6YA5C/ref=pd_cp_MI_1

 

[bassandsurf]

I have a doubt, having read all this thread I don't fell I can say the answer is clear.

I have a Edirol Roland FA-101 external audio interface with 8 analog unbalanced (only 2 balanced) ins and 8 analog unbalanced outs. it has 2 digital optical adat in/out.

I want to get to the next level and buy an 8 in balanced preamp, presonus digimax d8. this preamp has 8 unbalanced outs and 1 digital optical adat out.

If I plug the digital out from the preamp to one of the digital ins of the FA-101, will I get the 8 channels from the preamp into my computer? or will it show as one track because it entered the interface through one digital in?

If anyone can answer with a justified positive answer, I will, in no time, begin my carreer as a professional recording tech! hope this make's you feel better!

cheers
alschil

 

[AntekStalich]

I'm very much for TASCAM products. If OP needs 4 mic preamps and 8 channels, a good choice would be that: Invalid Link Removed

Good thing is the USB interface. I never liked FireWire. USB 2.0 is faster than FireWire 400 and marginally slower than FireWire 800. And USB is supported by any PC, without any extra hardware.

 

[Samsound]

One other thing for you - to answer your question about SYNC:
If it is a BNC connector, that is word clock. If you're connecting via ADAT to only the one interface, it is not needed - ADAT has it's own sync in the lightpipe protocol. The extra word clock capability is for connecting multiple devices digitally. You would connect their word clock BNCs to a master time unit, such as the Apogee Big Ben.

 

[tnickk]

I used to use all Tascam stuff. Switched to Apogee. Huge difference.

 

[Charling]

One other thing for you - to answer your question about SYNC:
If it is a BNC connector, that is word clock. If you're connecting via ADAT to only the one interface, it is not needed - ADAT has it's own sync in the lightpipe protocol. The extra word clock capability is for connecting multiple devices digitally. You would connect their word clock BNCs to a master time unit, such as the Apogee Big Ben.

Its generally preferable to clock on a separate line to the line the audio is going though. So ADAT for audio, BNC for clock is preferred. However, the difference is not going to make or break a recording!

Better designed digital gear can also avoid clock artifacts characteristic of sending audio and clock along the same cable, and will normally mention this in the manual if this is so! This is normally seen on more expensive gear, and normally as a part of the AES protocol.

 

[4Mal]

Apogee - if you can afford it ... most of us with home studios - man, that's just un-obtanium.

My home rig is Pro Tools LE based using a Digi 002. I'm just implementing a mobile rig based around a Lenovo T61 laptop, Tascam Us-800 and ART S8 splitter. Currently using the Cubase LE 5 that came with the interface for audio capture. I'll also try Reaper and N-track studio. I've heard some very good things about N-Track over the years. I like lightweight when it comes to recording audio as it leads to stability IME.

So far so good. The Tascam sounds pretty good in testing for the $250 - 8 in and 4 out is pretty darned cheap too...

OP - recording your band ... you might consider using a V-Kit for live tracking as you can get the rhythm bed's down in one pass if you monitor through headphones.

Guitarist uses a small amp, mic up an isolated speaker for him. Bass goes DI (assuming you don't have enough isolation for bass and guitar - that takes space and material ...

Do another pass for vocals and then capture drums live if necessary - a decent V-Kit, although drummers complain about the feel endlessly, can sound really good in a mixed context and they are incredibly easy to track ... Acoustic drums takes a lot of time and effort to get right. It's totally worth it if the drummer is great and has a sweet and well tuned kit. VDrums are way better than demo quality though and they are super fast to track... as studio gear goes, a used V Kit isn't all that expensive... it's well worth having one around in a small project / home studio as you can get the advantages of tracking a band as a unit and then re-do the drum's without all the isolation being necessary.

 

[Charling]

I have a doubt, having read all this thread I don't fell I can say the answer is clear.

I have a Edirol Roland FA-101 external audio interface with 8 analog unbalanced (only 2 balanced) ins and 8 analog unbalanced outs. it has 2 digital optical adat in/out.

I want to get to the next level and buy an 8 in balanced preamp, presonus digimax d8. this preamp has 8 unbalanced outs and 1 digital optical adat out.

If I plug the digital out from the preamp to one of the digital ins of the FA-101, will I get the 8 channels from the preamp into my computer? or will it show as one track because it entered the interface through one digital in?

If anyone can answer with a justified positive answer, I will, in no time, begin my carreer as a professional recording tech! hope this make's you feel better!

cheers
alschil

Hey man,

The inputs on the front of the FA-101, if I'm looking at the same model as the one you have, are SPDIF, not ADAT. Spdif is a 2-channel protocol that connects with either optical or phono style connectors, the one you have is optical of course!

You would need a converter box (a device which converts the signal itself, more complex than your typical analog jack>xlr connector or similar). Hosa make these boxes and they are not too pricey (£50 at a guess? may be wrong!). However the spdif input is only ever going to be 2 channel, so it will only look at (most likely) ADAT 1 and 2 coming from the preamps. The rest will be discarded along the way.

So to expand your setup you really want to be looking for a stereo preamp with optical spdif (toslink) outs, though to my knowledge there are very few of those about. many use coaxial cable (with phono connectors) spdif out but again you would need a converter to use these to go into your optical spdif ins.

Here is a list of the common digital audio connections >

-TOSLINK optical SPDIF, the least robust of the lot. 2 channel, can carry clock as well but has various technical quirks that reduce its usefulness for recording. Most often used for consumer digital to digital transfers like MD players etc.

-RCA Coaxial SPDIF, phono connectors. Not too robust but lacks the easily damaged optical cable in favour of a good old fashioned copper wire. Same protocol with the same problems though. By and large though it will work fine with little impact on the signal, not really advised to let it carry clock as well as audio but the difference will be small.

-ADAT TOSLINK optical. Same connectors as the first one, but very different data. ADAT was designed by alesis and used to transfer between their DAT machines (the name means Alesis Digital Audio Tape) but the term ADAT has become widely used to refer to the protocol itself, and the protocol has been integrated into a huge amount of differing gear. It can do 8 channels at 24/44.8 and carry clock as well.

-AES/EBU, the digital version of a balanced xlr, its the pro-standard for digital audio transfer and uses normal XLR connectors (VERY different signal though, of course!). 2 channel with clock, its very robust to various digital gremlins that designers have to consider and on good gear can carry clock at the same time as audio with no extra artifacts whatsoever. Also comes in unbalanced flavour using BNC connectors but this isn't often seen.

-Wordclock BNC, doesn't carry any audio, its just a way of sending a timing reference to all the bits of gear in a system that have digital inputs or outputs. It allows the clock in one piece of gear to be the master, and link all the others to it as slaves. Roughly speaking good clocks sound better due to increased stability etc, but we are talking very very small differences here, which only super pros need to worry about! Generally as long as you have one master and all the rest slaves it'll all work fine.

Other include MADI (very specific, like a huge version of adat with no clock) firewire and usb (which are just next generation digital audio connections really!) and a host of obscure inventions, some very good!

Hehe, hope thats interested some people and perhaps helped a few others get to sleep