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Questions about the Early 70s Muscle Car Experience
- Thread starter SgtHulka
- Start date
I got to drive a very old 2nd or 3rd generation convertible steel body Stingray a couple of times. I don't know what size V8 motor was in it but it wasn't fast. It was huge. I was surprised how truly awful was the handling. For what looks like a full on sports car I expected a lot more.
I followed a late 60's wagon with the nice paint and flash wheels over a bit of a hill climb a few years ago. Must of had some suspension improvement as it handled well going up, slightly lowered and plenty of power. Obviously the driver was giving it some and it was only slowing me up a little so kinda fun to watch. Going down it was hopeless. Disc brake conversion needed!
A 73 GTO has a different interesting look to it but its not high on performance. As a Pontiac guy I'd go for an earlier GTO if that was your choice, 1970 and back with the best motor option you can find. A 71 or 72 may do if you can find it with a 455HO. I have a 68 Firebird 400 but I've owned a pair of 79 Trans Ams a 1965 Lemans and some later stuff. If you want to consider a newer 80's car Buick Grand Nationals are a good bet for fun and will most likely increase. A late 80's Trans Am was available with the Grand National Turbo 3.8 after the GN was discontinued. It ran faster than the GN did and would be a good choice too. You can also look for just about any 70's Trans Am they are steadily climbing. The real gems would be a 70' 1/2 TA with a Ram Air IV a 71 or 72 with the 455HO or the best of the bunch a 73 or 74 455 Super Duty. A later 77 Special Edition Trans Am (think Smokey and the Bandit) would be a good one too but won't run as hard as the earlier ones.
Absolutely ! That 70 Duster is no Junior Muscle Car. Those things came from the factory with Forged Pistons and Forged Rods. They are strong running cars. A buddy had one and couple others had 340 Darts. All of them ran hard!
I remember the 89 ish TA with the Turbo 3.8 GN engine. Iirc, only 1500 or so of them were built, so finding one may not be an easy task.
apart from your last paragraph, you would be able to get the same from a 2000s on car.
Pontiac GTO, Camaro, Mustang, Challenger or as you suggested - a Corvette. Airbags and air conditioning in these.
I have the feeling you are not after a 4door sedan so I excluded the Pontiac G8 & Chev SS.
What??? My C-7 Vette goes 0 to 60 in 3.8 seconds. And this is we me driving and I am not a pro. 484 HP delivered to the rear wheels. If that is not a little muscle, I don't know what is.
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I'm assuming the Corvette would be classified as a Sports Car.
My 81 Camaro does 0-60 in under 2 seconds and runs the 1/4 mile in a little over 10 seconds.
My 79 Z/28 runs mid 12's in the 1/4 on pump gas.
My 68 SS396 El Camino (a real 138 car and not a clone) runs in the 13 second range.
Sadly, none are considered to be muscle cars.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
Don't remember any Corvette being offered with a steel body.......
apart from your last paragraph, you would be able to get the same from a 2000s on car.
Pontiac GTO, Camaro, Mustang, Challenger or as you suggested - a Corvette. Airbags and air conditioning in these.
I have the feeling you are not after a 4door sedan so I excluded the Pontiac G8 & Chev SS.
Somehow I don't see the newer stuff having the same visual appeal as the old stuff. Yeah, a 2019 Camaro can run circles around a 69, but 20 years from now no one is going to crowd around the 2019 and look at it in awe..... it's just another plastic bumpered car that looks like every other car on the road today...... Imo, if course.
There's something about the styling, brute force and ignorance of a 50 year old hot rod that will never fade away......
Any of the C3 Corvettes after about 1974 or so (in stock form) were a disappointment. Compression ratios in the early to mid 70's dropped faster than the stock market thanks to the oil embargo and tougher emission laws. The L-48 350 produced a whopping 250 something ft/lbs of torque...... heck, my battery powered impact wrench is more powerful than that.
I don't disagree but it is another possible way to go. one exception - I think they will draw a crowd in 2040, not now though except one exceptional modded for show car purposes. Those cars go away from the driveable & comfortable part of their appeal as modern versions.
OK, this one might be long....
Let me preface this with at one time I was a mechanic and involved with drag racing, both on the track and on the streets. I've had many "classic muscle" cars of all brands, some were good, others were poor performers. One thing to keep in mind is that what was "fast" 40-50 years ago, is not when compared to "fast" today. (There is a guy on youtube with a reprogrammed Tesla that drives to drag strips and runs 10's) The muscle car experience is something different than 99.9999% of people have had in the last 40 years. There is no "hop in the car and go for a drive", drives are planned.
First thing you need to ask yourself is are you prepared to spend an equal amount of time maintaining the classic car as you are driving it? For example, I had a '69 Torino GT convertible, it started life as a 390GT, 4spd toploader, 28 spline equilock w/3.23's, a really nice driver, power disks, am/fm radio, power top. I used it for work, it was a daily driver for 2 years, then I sold the '67 Dodge Dart GTS (383, 4spd, 8-3/4) I was using as a race/street racer and decided to sink the $ into the Torino. I yanked the 390 and started with a '68 427MR block .060 over, Hank the Crank stroker, Carrillo H rods, 12.8-1 pistons, (~488 cubic inches) mechanical cam(324D/.568L/106CL) ported Dove MR heads and a sidewinder intake. the trans was changed to a Liberty skip-tooth syncro box and the diff went to a 31 spline Locker with strange axles (I forget the ratio, maybe 4.88's). We built a frame and roll cage for the car so it wouldn't twist up. The car weighed 3800Lbs and ran 11.1's/122 through mufflers with cheater slicks and granny shifting (there was no such thing as a rev limiter with points and with its ~4-3/4" stroke it would have flown apart.) It needed 30 minutes of time to make one run. On the street, it needed at least 2 hours for every 4 hours it was used. (Set both sets of points, check the plugs to set the mixture, run the valve lash, change jets, adjust float levels, set distributor advance, add timing, check throttle linkage, adjust shifter linkage, adjust clutch, safety check) I should also add that back then there was no Cam2 racing fuel available at gas stations so I would go to the local airfield and fill up with 100LL fuel so I could run about 38 degrees of timing in the car. Compare this to going down to the Ford dealer and getting a 2020 Mustang GT 5.0, that makes 475HP, with AC/cruise/Nav, has a 5yr/100K full warranty and comes with roadside support. You can hop in it and go for a ride anytime.
Muscle cars are labors of love now. They are vehicles to bond with your children if they have any interest at all in them. They are simple enough to be fixed with an adjustable wrench and pliers if you get stuck on the side of the road, they are conversation pieces when you take one to a friends BBQ party or go for a cruise night for ice cream. They are not daily drivers, grocery getters, primary car, they are toys, expensive, high maintenance toys.
Another thing I would like to say, they aren't cars that anyone can jump in and drive, especially drivers younger than 30 unless they have been taught how to. They require a lot of operating skills that haven't been needed for the last 40 years such as how to operate a hand choke, how to prime a cold engine, proper warm up, how to stop fast without anti-lock brakes, how to accelerate hard without traction control, how to anticipate oversteer/understeer and correct it at high speed, adjusted (very long) stopping distances, odd chassis reaction to road surface irregularities, torquesteer etc.
I still have my '70 340 Swinger, right now, I'm in the process of de-tuning it to be more of a street car than a race car on the street. I've taken it from 408 back to 340CI, took compression out of it, back to 10.5-1, swapped the W5 race heads to "econo" W2's, went to step-headers, out with the billit roller and in with a 284D/514/112CL solid cam, single 4 intake, took out the Coan 8" 4500 stall converter, Tranz-brake, in went in a 3000 stall/TCI auto valve body and the 5.14's are out and 3.91's are in. In race form it was 2800 Lbs running 10.06@131 naturally aspirated, no bottle. I figure back to mostly stock 3300Lbs it should be running low 12's/108ish and be drivable.
The little Dodge A-bodies are formidable street racing cars, many times big-block Chevelles, Fairlanes and Chargers were handed their hat by a 340/727/8-3/4 Dart/Duster/Swinger with a Direct Connection intake, Purpleshaft hydraulic cam and a set of either '70 HP manifolds or headers. Those will run 13'Os all day long through the mufflers on street tires and put down 60 foot times that makes cars with slicks embarrassed. There is also the option of Cobra kit cars......
Tom
Let me preface this with at one time I was a mechanic and involved with drag racing, both on the track and on the streets. I've had many "classic muscle" cars of all brands, some were good, others were poor performers. One thing to keep in mind is that what was "fast" 40-50 years ago, is not when compared to "fast" today. (There is a guy on youtube with a reprogrammed Tesla that drives to drag strips and runs 10's) The muscle car experience is something different than 99.9999% of people have had in the last 40 years. There is no "hop in the car and go for a drive", drives are planned.
First thing you need to ask yourself is are you prepared to spend an equal amount of time maintaining the classic car as you are driving it? For example, I had a '69 Torino GT convertible, it started life as a 390GT, 4spd toploader, 28 spline equilock w/3.23's, a really nice driver, power disks, am/fm radio, power top. I used it for work, it was a daily driver for 2 years, then I sold the '67 Dodge Dart GTS (383, 4spd, 8-3/4) I was using as a race/street racer and decided to sink the $ into the Torino. I yanked the 390 and started with a '68 427MR block .060 over, Hank the Crank stroker, Carrillo H rods, 12.8-1 pistons, (~488 cubic inches) mechanical cam(324D/.568L/106CL) ported Dove MR heads and a sidewinder intake. the trans was changed to a Liberty skip-tooth syncro box and the diff went to a 31 spline Locker with strange axles (I forget the ratio, maybe 4.88's). We built a frame and roll cage for the car so it wouldn't twist up. The car weighed 3800Lbs and ran 11.1's/122 through mufflers with cheater slicks and granny shifting (there was no such thing as a rev limiter with points and with its ~4-3/4" stroke it would have flown apart.) It needed 30 minutes of time to make one run. On the street, it needed at least 2 hours for every 4 hours it was used. (Set both sets of points, check the plugs to set the mixture, run the valve lash, change jets, adjust float levels, set distributor advance, add timing, check throttle linkage, adjust shifter linkage, adjust clutch, safety check) I should also add that back then there was no Cam2 racing fuel available at gas stations so I would go to the local airfield and fill up with 100LL fuel so I could run about 38 degrees of timing in the car. Compare this to going down to the Ford dealer and getting a 2020 Mustang GT 5.0, that makes 475HP, with AC/cruise/Nav, has a 5yr/100K full warranty and comes with roadside support. You can hop in it and go for a ride anytime.
Muscle cars are labors of love now. They are vehicles to bond with your children if they have any interest at all in them. They are simple enough to be fixed with an adjustable wrench and pliers if you get stuck on the side of the road, they are conversation pieces when you take one to a friends BBQ party or go for a cruise night for ice cream. They are not daily drivers, grocery getters, primary car, they are toys, expensive, high maintenance toys.
Another thing I would like to say, they aren't cars that anyone can jump in and drive, especially drivers younger than 30 unless they have been taught how to. They require a lot of operating skills that haven't been needed for the last 40 years such as how to operate a hand choke, how to prime a cold engine, proper warm up, how to stop fast without anti-lock brakes, how to accelerate hard without traction control, how to anticipate oversteer/understeer and correct it at high speed, adjusted (very long) stopping distances, odd chassis reaction to road surface irregularities, torquesteer etc.
I still have my '70 340 Swinger, right now, I'm in the process of de-tuning it to be more of a street car than a race car on the street. I've taken it from 408 back to 340CI, took compression out of it, back to 10.5-1, swapped the W5 race heads to "econo" W2's, went to step-headers, out with the billit roller and in with a 284D/514/112CL solid cam, single 4 intake, took out the Coan 8" 4500 stall converter, Tranz-brake, in went in a 3000 stall/TCI auto valve body and the 5.14's are out and 3.91's are in. In race form it was 2800 Lbs running 10.06@131 naturally aspirated, no bottle. I figure back to mostly stock 3300Lbs it should be running low 12's/108ish and be drivable.
The little Dodge A-bodies are formidable street racing cars, many times big-block Chevelles, Fairlanes and Chargers were handed their hat by a 340/727/8-3/4 Dart/Duster/Swinger with a Direct Connection intake, Purpleshaft hydraulic cam and a set of either '70 HP manifolds or headers. Those will run 13'Os all day long through the mufflers on street tires and put down 60 foot times that makes cars with slicks embarrassed. There is also the option of Cobra kit cars......
Tom
Fishheadjoe, I think you mean Buick Grand National. And there were no four doors in that model
Most of my muscle car experience was in one of these back in high school.
Nah. He means Pontiac. There was a Grand National type high performance model called a 2+2 I think. It had a huge glass rear window.
Pretty sure it was a 2 door though.
