Questions about the Early 70s Muscle Car Experience

[Michael Jewels]

Tomd999: yes, that was a long post, but, you, sir, know what you're talking about!


No, I am not a mechanic, and never was, but I hung around with one in the 1970s.
What a time to be young.

Mike

 

[fdeck]

I'm sure you already know this, but if you live in a northern state, a classic car can't be your daily driver. My first car was a '75 Dodge van that I got sometime around '85, and drove in Michigan and northern Indiana. A car that handles badly in the first place, can be a real challenge in snow and ice. And those cars rust quickly -- even quicker if re-painted.

 

[lyonaudio]

yeah, at 7000 RPM.....that's no fun..

At a mere 5859 RPM, plus 354 lb/ft of torque at 1950 RPM...
Vroom!

 

[lyonaudio]

Camaros/Firebirds (F-bodies) and Mustangs (pony cars) aren't muscle cars by definition.

Oh yes they were/are...

They were considered muscle cars by C&D, MT and R&T magazines.

 

[lyonaudio]

Don't remember any Corvette being offered with a steel body.......

The world famous, yet obscure, "knitting needle" Corvette of 1963-64. Very long and pointy with the passenger behind the driver and rear outrigger wheels. A straight 8 engine too. Worth a fortune now if you can find one.

 

[Mike N]

OK, this one might be long....

Let me preface this with at one time I was a mechanic and involved with drag racing, both on the track and on the streets. I've had many "classic muscle" cars of all brands, some were good, others were poor performers. One thing to keep in mind is that what was "fast" 40-50 years ago, is not when compared to "fast" today. (There is a guy on youtube with a reprogrammed Tesla that drives to drag strips and runs 10's) The muscle car experience is something different than 99.9999% of people have had in the last 40 years. There is no "hop in the car and go for a drive", drives are planned.

First thing you need to ask yourself is are you prepared to spend an equal amount of time maintaining the classic car as you are driving it? For example, I had a '69 Torino GT convertible, it started life as a 390GT, 4spd toploader, 28 spline equilock w/3.23's, a really nice driver, power disks, am/fm radio, power top. I used it for work, it was a daily driver for 2 years, then I sold the '67 Dodge Dart GTS (383, 4spd, 8-3/4) I was using as a race/street racer and decided to sink the $ into the Torino. I yanked the 390 and started with a '68 427MR block .060 over, Hank the Crank stroker, Carrillo H rods, 12.8-1 pistons, (~488 cubic inches) mechanical cam(324D/.568L/106CL) ported Dove MR heads and a sidewinder intake. the trans was changed to a Liberty skip-tooth syncro box and the diff went to a 31 spline Locker with strange axles (I forget the ratio, maybe 4.88's). We built a frame and roll cage for the car so it wouldn't twist up. The car weighed 3800Lbs and ran 11.1's/122 through mufflers with cheater slicks and granny shifting (there was no such thing as a rev limiter with points and with its ~4-3/4" stroke it would have flown apart.) It needed 30 minutes of time to make one run. On the street, it needed at least 2 hours for every 4 hours it was used. (Set both sets of points, check the plugs to set the mixture, run the valve lash, change jets, adjust float levels, set distributor advance, add timing, check throttle linkage, adjust shifter linkage, adjust clutch, safety check) I should also add that back then there was no Cam2 racing fuel available at gas stations so I would go to the local airfield and fill up with 100LL fuel so I could run about 38 degrees of timing in the car. Compare this to going down to the Ford dealer and getting a 2020 Mustang GT 5.0, that makes 475HP, with AC/cruise/Nav, has a 5yr/100K full warranty and comes with roadside support. You can hop in it and go for a ride anytime.

Muscle cars are labors of love now. They are vehicles to bond with your children if they have any interest at all in them. They are simple enough to be fixed with an adjustable wrench and pliers if you get stuck on the side of the road, they are conversation pieces when you take one to a friends BBQ party or go for a cruise night for ice cream. They are not daily drivers, grocery getters, primary car, they are toys, expensive, high maintenance toys.

Another thing I would like to say, they aren't cars that anyone can jump in and drive, especially drivers younger than 30 unless they have been taught how to. They require a lot of operating skills that haven't been needed for the last 40 years such as how to operate a hand choke, how to prime a cold engine, proper warm up, how to stop fast without anti-lock brakes, how to accelerate hard without traction control, how to anticipate oversteer/understeer and correct it at high speed, adjusted (very long) stopping distances, odd chassis reaction to road surface irregularities, torquesteer etc.

I still have my '70 340 Swinger, right now, I'm in the process of de-tuning it to be more of a street car than a race car on the street. I've taken it from 408 back to 340CI, took compression out of it, back to 10.5-1, swapped the W5 race heads to "econo" W2's, went to step-headers, out with the billit roller and in with a 284D/514/112CL solid cam, single 4 intake, took out the Coan 8" 4500 stall converter, Tranz-brake, in went in a 3000 stall/TCI auto valve body and the 5.14's are out and 3.91's are in. In race form it was 2800 Lbs running 10.06@131 naturally aspirated, no bottle. I figure back to mostly stock 3300Lbs it should be running low 12's/108ish and be drivable.

The little Dodge A-bodies are formidable street racing cars, many times big-block Chevelles, Fairlanes and Chargers were handed their hat by a 340/727/8-3/4 Dart/Duster/Swinger with a Direct Connection intake, Purpleshaft hydraulic cam and a set of either '70 HP manifolds or headers. Those will run 13'Os all day long through the mufflers on street tires and put down 60 foot times that makes cars with slicks embarrassed. There is also the option of Cobra kit cars......

Tom

Your Torino sounds like it was a racecar being driven on the street.

The 340 Swinger sounds far more practical for daily driving.

 

[hbarcat]

Also, from what I have read, cars from the 60 & 70's HP was measured at the flywheel. Today's cars, HP is measured where it really counts, at the drive axle.

A lot of those cars had 3 speed automatic transmissions which are horribly inefficient. Internal resistance robs anywhere from 30 -- 60 hp.

 

[PaulCISSA]

Best car I ever owned was a '72 Javelin. Loved that car. That Duster might have "only" a 340, but it may be a "6 pack" model. (Three two barrel carbs) They were pretty quick. Remember too the big blocks are much heavier...

I play with a guitarist every few months that has his fathers 1969 AMC AMX stored in his garage. It's 100%. Bought new by his dad in 1969. Still runs, needs some TLC and some rubber parts but otherwise mint. Very nostalgic for me - I worked for AMC for many years before Diamler/Chrysler raped it.

 

[DWBass]

My 70's 'Muscle Car' was a 1973 Pontiac LeMans Sport Coupe. Powder Blue with full sport trim, louvers on the rear seat windows, white vinyl roof. 350 engine. Not a 'big' engine when talking 'muscle' but this thing could go.

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

At a mere 5859 RPM, plus 354 lb/ft of torque at 1950 RPM...
Vroom!

Pas la meme chose, lots of things can be done with uP based control. Seems like fossil fuel based motor designers are reaching the limits of what is possible with piston engines. Why not go full circle and use electric motors that speak the same language the processor does? Because, although a Tesla S can do 0 to 60 in almost 3 seconds, they are about as sexy as a door nail...

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

I play with a guitarist every few months that has his fathers 1969 AMC AMX stored in his garage. It's 100%. Bought new by his dad in 1969. Still runs, needs some TLC and some rubber parts but otherwise mint. Very nostalgic for me - I worked for AMC for many years before Diamler/Chrysler raped it.

The upside to Chrysler buying AMC is that it gave Iacocca a platform for the Cherokee, the world's first SUV. There's some AMC legacy. BMW (as Nash did with Willys before merging with Hudson to become AMC) bought Land Rover for the same purpose; AWD know how. AMC imo was always very innovative. My dad was a diehard and drove a white 327 Marlin for some time.
my 68...

 

[Gaolee]

What's the competing one of the time? Open top roadster boat.

I'm not sure what that would be in the 1970s. In the mid-1950s it was a Ford Thunderbird, but that didn't last long.

 

[Stewie26]

I'm not sure what that would be in the 1970s. In the mid-1950s it was a Ford Thunderbird, but that didn't last long.

I could not think of one either except the very early T Birds. Later, the Shelby Cobra, but I would hardly call that an open top boat.

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

I could not think of one either except the very early T Birds. Later, the Shelby Cobra, but I would hardly call that an open top boat.

75 Eldorado?

 

[fhm555]

I didn't read the whole string but what i did read failed to mention two serious sleepers from the late 60's
one of my high school classmates had a GTS Dart with a 340 and a three speed automatic. I don't recall what year model it was but he got it lightly used in 1970 so i'm thinking 68~69. We put a set of Hedman headers on it with cherry bomb glass packs and he flipped the air filter cover over and other than driving it, that was all he ever did to it. It was killer quick and stupid fast. He used a dymo label maker to make a reminder which he stuck to the lower part of the glass covering the speedometer that read "don't go over 140 in 2nd gear", and it was not a joke. I've seen him take a Road Runner with a 426 cross ram and own it in a standing start and a rolling start quarter mile, and the 426 was the only car he ever tried that could stay in the same time zone in a drag race, and he tried anyone who had the gall to ask. People came from three states to try and dethrone him and none ever could. It took center punching a fire plug at a good clip to crack the block and twist the frame, to put it down. This is not the actual car but it could be. The wheels may have been different but the color and the black hood with the long eyebrows are exactly what it had, and no tail stripe that most GTS Darts had. If i ever have a total lapse of reason and go in search of an American muscle car, this would be in my top three choices.

next up is a 65 Mercury Comet Cyclone. I don't know much about these cars other than another one of my high school classmate's dad had one with a built 289 and a four speed manual. It would only hit around 130 but it would get there so quick. This was the second quickest street car i had personal connection to. My buddy's dad would let him take it out occasionally and we'd hunt big blocks who suffered from the silly notion that small blocks just couldn't cut the mustard.

Last was my car. A 70 GTO with a performance package specific to some Dallas Pontiac dealer. It came to Alabama in the hands of a GI going to flight school. Back then most huey pilots shipped out To Vietnam right after completion of training. My dad bought the car and gave it to me for graduation. It was not the quickest car around but was respectable enough to remind most people who thought they might have a quick car, but not the quickest by any stretch. Where it really shined was top end. It registered 140 on a round gauge and it would run the needle around past 140 to pointing straight down and still be accelerating. I'd had it about a month when I got the right side off the road one night with the needle maxed out and somehow managed to get it back without wrecking. Not long after that i traded it for a very clean 1956 FL and a decent pile of cash, and that ended my flirtation with fast cars and started a 2 wheeled love affair that still burns today. I had dirt bikes growing up and a crazy fast hot rodded Kawasaki 500 triple, but i sold it so i'd live long enough to graduate high school and bought a triumph 650 TR6R. I sold it to another classmate when I got the GTO. Outside that GTO my only other 4 wheeled transport until I was pushing 30 was a string of old ragged out pickups i used to haul bikes to my little back yard shop. Imagine this car with chrome reverse wheels, baby moon hub caps and G60's all the way round and that would be my GTO.

 

[Stewie26]

75 Eldorado?

Now that is truly an open top boat assuming it is a convertible. That said, it would never be considered in the same class of cars as a Corvette.

 

[Chucky Stiletti]

Now that is truly an open top boat assuming it is a convertible. That said, it would never be considered in the same class of cars as a Corvette.

no doubt, it was FWD as well..

 

[lyonaudio]

Pas la meme chose, lots of things can be done with uP based control. Seems like fossil fuel based motor designers are reaching the limits of what is possible with piston engines. Why not go full circle and use electric motors that speak the same language the processor does? Because, although a Tesla S can do 0 to 60 in almost 3 seconds, they are about as sexy as a door nail...

 

[Pilgrim]

I was 20 in 1970. In 1971 I bought a '66 GTO with the 389 / 4bbl / 4 speed / positrac. No power steering, no AC, no power brakes. In those days the word was that PS and AC stole horsepower from the engine so guys buying for the power would often skip them.

You need to do more reading about the era and the evolution of performance cars. The apex of the muscle cars was the late 60's, as the emissions controls and rising insurance rates dialed back both power and performance starting around 1971.

That's not to say that the early 70's cars were wimpy, they weren't. But they have their own design quirks as the manufacturers had to back down a bit. By 1975 most of the big blocks were gone from mid-size cars and high end cars were producing less HP than they did earlier. Of course, the HP rating calculations changed radically to net HP in 1972, so engine HP ratings for the same engine would have changed from 1971 to 1972.

There are many factors that affect price. One of them is obviously condition, and another is originality. A numbers-matching car is worth more than a non-matching car. One with rust problems is worth less than one which has been rebuilt or reconditioned.

Still, it pays to buy one that someone else has done the work on. Reconstruction and rust work takes a lot of skill and $$$$$.

Personally, I looked down on the Dusters as junior grade cars. They were smaller, and unless they had one of tthe big engines they were a bit behind the larger cars in performance. By today's standards they fare better, because the sound of a decent V8 is a novelty now. Anything with less than 350 cubes was small in my opinion then, although I drove a couple of Mopars with 318s that impressed me. That 318 was one strong little engine! I didn't drive a 340 so I can't opine on them.

The Pontiac 389 (1966) and 400 (1967-73)are the same engine. (That's true of the Pontiac 326-389-400-421 series). Different bores and strokes, but looking at them you can't tell them apart. I recall that the '66 GO was rated at 335 HP and 440 lbs/ft of torque at 2800 RPM. Of course, adding carbs or a cam changed that, but that was the factory rating.

But throughout these years, the manufacturers had special packages that were bought in small numbers - you had to do your homework and order the hi-power options from the factory. Those days are gone. Also, the 1973 400 was rated 250 HP while the 1966 389 was rated 335 HP...the power had dropped. I didn't find a torque spec for the 400 in 1973, but it was probably down a bit as well.

There is something that big blocks do - they generate torque, which gets you moving from a stop. They also suck gas. I recall clearly that my all-time record MPG on a highway cruise was 13.5 MPG, but I could drive it like a beast and get 10 MPG all day. So with only 3-4 MPG difference, why go easy? I had fun at every stoplight.

I happen to like the "colonnade" styling that began the third gen of GTO in 1973. In fact, I like all the GM colonnade series cars. They should be less expensive than the earlier 60's cars, and perhaps will be in marginally better shape having been on the road a few less years.

Throughout all those years, all the GM mid-size cars were essentially the same frame and technology. The Olds 4-4-2 drove just like the GTO, which drove like the Chevelle. The bodies and options were different, and the engines and rear ends were different. Do some reading on all this before you buy.

I recommend Hemmings Muscle Machines as an ideal publication to read and gain knowledge of these car.

You can do lots of interesting things with any of the V8s from those years and with the big blocks, just expect low gas mileage and big grins. You might to also check your insurance, because there may be a surprise there depending on your age and driving record. However, if you want to drive it limited miles as a fun car and have a locked garage to park in, you can probably buy collectors insurance from Hagerty (or similar company) for much less than daily driver insurance.

Here's a 66 GTO very similar to mine:

 

[Chucky Stiletti]