Double Bass questions about walking bass in jazz

[turf3]

A chord is only a subset of a scale. The problem is to find out which notes are not part of the chord but part of the scale. Usually there are a lot of options, but one scale that fits best in a traditional way of chord progressions.

With all due respect, I don't think this is necessarily the best way to think about most harmony used in jazz. Sure, there are tunes where the scale is the thing (the "modal" tunes, we all know about, of course...) but I have found the "this chord symbol is really just a code for the scale to play at this point" has kind of become something I am trying to get away from.

I am more inclined, when playing tunes of more conventional construction, to think "a scale is an elaboration of a chord".

 

[Steve Freides]

A couple of points in no particular order.

The "reharm" of the first 4 bars of 12-bar blues I hear when I think of the form is I-IV-I-I. If mostly triads, then I-IV-I-I7 - for whatever that's worth to anyone.

When I teach students how to create bass lines from chord symbols, I follow a simple progression:

• Roots in whole notes.
• Roots and fifths in half notes.
• Various and sundry chord tones in quarter notes.
• Chord tones in quarter notes but you look for the next closest note at a chord change, e.g., you might play F-A-C-Eb and then start the Bb chord on D since that's close.
• Filling in between chord tones.

For that last one, I try to show a few examples but I encourage experimentation and, ear-training geek that I am, and written music fan that I am not withstanding, I don't encourage looking at transcriptions but instead doing it all by listening, and imitating if desired. I encourage my students, at the beginning, to write down their own lines but not others'.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

 

[Aor82]

Going back to the OP's questions and link of thinking: As a general guide I don't thinks it's worth the mental energy to think of 7 note scales when we as bassists are only playing 4 or 2 notes per chord.

If you want more, I find the "chord tones + extension" thinking to be more practical than the "what scale to use" thinking. You could think of every chord as a 13th chord and get your 7 notes that way. Or also useful is to limit the "Scale" to tetrachords, 4 note chunks. And here we can have one tetrachord for the bottom 4 notes, and another tetrachord for the top 4 notes that doesn't necessarily go with the bottom, because 4 quarter notes later, the chord has changed already

So you mean by "think of every chord as a 13th chord" that I should use a dorian mode for every m7 chord?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

So you mean by "think of every chord as a 13th chord" that I should use a dorian mode for every m7 chord?

No, he meant that a complete specification of the seven notes in a chord symbol that either ends with a 13 or b13 fixes the scale notes.

That's true and a possible solution, but often makes chord symbols unreadable when playing.

To define a special scale I prefer a scale name or scale structure name and mode number to find the notes more quickly (after some training of course, since this is not common practice). A chord symbol can be added to define which notes should be played by a chordal instrument.

 

[Aor82]

A chord is only a subset of a scale. The problem is to find out which notes are not part of the chord but part of the scale. Usually there are a lot of options, but one scale that fits best in a traditional way of chord progressions.

To point 1:

All scales are modes of something, but not necessarily of the major scale. There are other scale structures like melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major (= major with a b6) and Halftone-Woletone. The modes of the Wholetone scale are identical to the scale itself. And there are some more special ones like dominant-phrygian (8-tone) and some gypsy/Indian scales with more than one augmented second in them that are usually not used in different modes.

To answer your question, it is not correct if you always use aeolian on a m7 chord. In fact in many cases dorian is a better choice, but it might be phrygian or another scale not derived from the major scale but a different one (but this is seldom the case).

On maj7 it could be either lydian or ionian (major), but also harmonic major in its first mode is possible.

To point 2:

It gets more complicated in minor, since modes from melodic and harmonic minor (basically the fifth mode on the dominant) are used. That's your b9 b13 for harmonic minor fifth mode or b13 for melodic minor fifth mode.
But a lot of options are possible as long as the scales contain all the notes of the scale. Keep in mind that all musicians need to know which scale should be applied and use it. So you might need to change your mind on the fly when you hear your co-musicians play their chords and melodies if it doesn't fit your assumptions.

If you play stuff up to bebop, you need to find out the current root note. Easy if you find a IIm-V7 progression, but that only works for major. And often enough the tonality changes every two chords (sometimes even from one chord to the next), specially in bebop. So you either need to analyze the chord progression or try to hear the next note before you play it. If it sounds strange, use the other note possible (usually a halftone away from what you wanted to play).

To point 3:

I cannot help you with point 3 much, since my internet connection is really bad and I cannot open your file. For me the major blues scale is mixolydian that can float to Dorian and back, but it's more complicated, since the root of the blues scale is a neutral or floating third. Use the minor third before or after the major one to show that, but otherwise omit the minor third in your lines. And don't end a chord on the minor third when changing to a new chord.

so when do I choose phrygian? lydian?...is it depends on the chord degree related to the present scale? that is being played?....Im totally confused. in order to do things right, I need to know whether the scale notes I choose to connect chord tones with are chromatic or not. this is what I've learnt. There is where my questions were came from.

 

[Don Kasper]

I would suggest that everyone puts down their gadget and go play that measure on the bass.

Tried it.
Didn't care for it.
Life goes on.
Thanks, as always, for your time and expertise, John.

 

[longfinger]

so when do I choose phrygian? lydian?...is it depends on the chord degree related to the present scale? that is being played?....Im totally confused. in order to do things right, I need to know whether the scale notes I choose to connect chord tones with are chromatic or not. this is what I've learnt. There is where my questions were came from.

What I meant about 13th chords was just to hear how the 7 note scale of the moment sounded out when spaced out in 3rds. Extend the chord and you get your scale. In that concept, they are all chord tones. In the practice room on a piano play out all these notes, paying attention to the several tops (9-11-13) to the common bottoms (1-3-5-7). Hear how the different 13th chords sound, what's consonant, what's dissonant.

ie. (1-b3-5b7) with (b9-11-b13) or (9-11-b13) or (9-11-13)
That's a m7th chord with extensions that fit either "phrygian", "aoelian" or "dorian". But, when thinking of them as chord tones, it's just easier for me, (maybe you too?) to get the notes that sounds good and move on to the next measure. We're basically playing roots, thirds and fifths, and perhaps some sevenths, along with some other stuff to make it all flow.

I don't thinks it's time efficient to ponder names of 7 note scales on bass, when we are playing 4 notes and moving on (sometimes only 2 notes and moving on).
ie. Q: Was it Aoelian, or Dorian? A: Don't care, I didn't play the 6th. Moving on.

So for your Phrygian, if you had a m7th chord with a b9, that would be a good option especially if it had a b13 too. But what if it had a natural 13th instead? Ok well just play the nat 13 along with the regular notes and move on. Why waste time thinking what that 7 note scale is... and all those names? (2nd mode of melodic minor, Phrygian ♮6, Dorian ♭2, Javanese, or Phrygi-dorian ???) All for a m7 chord with (b9-11-13)

When I play guitar, I need to pay more attention to which 7 notes to use, as I can far more easily play more notes than I can on bass. I can go through 8 notes in a measure melodically, and play even 2-3 at a time.
On bass, I'm playing quarter notes, or half notes. Thinking chord tones instead of 7 note scale names is so much more to the point. Here I'm not doing fast runs of lots of notes.

Most of my time on bass is playing roots, thirds and fifths. It's not too different in vocabulary from Baroque bass (Vivaldi, Bach) etc. The other notes, 7, 2, 4, 6 come and go in a way that sounds good supporting the melody and the chords on top.

Try things out with someone playing chords for you (or backing tracks), or yourself at the piano. Hear what the options sound like.

 

[Aor82]

Interesting — there are two parallel threads parsing two choruses of this bass line from a book that I wrote 25 years ago — My response in the other thread is here.

My response in the other thread is here.

@Steve Freides I didn't use a key signature, because that's often the case with jazz tunes. Yes, you could have a key signature of F with one flat, but you don't need it and I think the line is clearer without. Glancing through chorus #8, I think there would be one accidental less if there was an F major key signature. Since the point of these bass lines in my book was to demonstrate where to put chord tones, scale tones and chromatic tones in an F blues, I used the key signature of "C" to make the construction of the lines more clear. In other transcriptions in the book, I use key signatures (Ab major / 4 flats for "Lover Come Back To Me"), or in the case of "All The Things You Are," I don't use a key signature, because the song changes keys constantly.

@Don Kasper & @Steve Friedes Regarding the E in bar 3 of chorus #9, I would suggest that everyone puts down their gadget and go play that measure on the bass. Right now . . . I'll wait.

The E clashes against the sound of the F7, but the chromatic pull of the E *not resolving* immediately to the F creates a nice tension that is resolved 3 beats later when the line comes down from G, to Gb to the F. Of course, you can play an Eb, and that would be theoretically correct — albeit with less tension in the bass line. To me, the Eb sounds correct—and vanilla, less urgent. Both work, but since this is a demonstration of chromaticism in a bass line, I used E natural. As Chris points out, this is a "simple enclosure."

@Tom Lane Thad Jones was a trumpet/flugelhorn player (one of the greatest), not a piano player. He was also a composer and big band arranger (arguably the most influential in the past 50 years). Big band arrangers sometimes write specific lines for the bass that complement what's happening in the horn sections. Stock arrangements usually have written bass lines so less experienced players have something to fall back on. But arrangers like Thad, Brookmeyer and Holman often wrote out bass lines because they were integral parts of the arrangement.

@Chris Fitzgerald We've been using these handouts at Aebersold since 1980 or so! When I talked to Jamey about doing the Invalid Link Removed book, I including these 12 choruses of F blues because that was a clear explanation of the nuts and bolts of what's possible when improvising a bass line. The rest of the lines in the book are note-for-note transcriptions of lines that I improvised on standards with a rhythm section. I analyze the lines bar for bar—what I played and why.

Regarding recording Aebersold playalongs: I've recorded a lot of them, and yes—sometimes there is a soloist playing along who is improvising (You never hear the soloist). That's why people often hear surprising things in the comping (even alternate changes), harmony, bass line and rhythm (and that's why they sound more human than Band In A Box). Most of the playalongs I recorded did not have a soloist playing along — just the rhythm section. Jamey would sometimes give us instructions over the headphones while we were playing (i.e. Last chorus, play a turnaround, vamp on the last chord), or he would even scat while we're recording. I seem to recall him whistling a solo once while we were recording

Hi John,

thank you very much for your analysis!!
once I've got these choruses from a teacher I had.

what do you think about this analysis about the 8th chorus?:

"Measure 1: The chord is F7, and 3 out of 4 notes (F, A, and C) are chord tones of F7. On beat 4 (a "weak beat") the composer uses a chromatic passing tone (B natural) to connect from chord tone C to chord tone Bb in the next measure.

Measure 2: In my opinion, this is a "chord substitution." The bassist is implying Gmin7-C7-F, the ultra-important "two five one" progression that every jazz musician absolutely MUST know. Looking at it from that perspective, we see that 3 out of 4 notes are chord tones (Bb is the root of Bb7 or the 3rd of Gmin7; C and E are the root and 3rd of C7). On beat 2 (a "weak beat") the composer uses a chromatic passing tone (B natural) to connect from chord tone Bb to chord tone C.

Measures 3 and 4: Same chord for 2 measures, so I will analyze them together. A common chord substitution would be to play F9 instead of F7. If you think of the chord as two bars of F9, then 6 out of 8 notes (F, G, A, C, F, A) are chord tones of F9. The composer uses 2 chromatic passing tones, both on the "weak beats": F# to connect chord tone F to chord tone G, and G# to connect chord tone G to chord tone A."

Thanks

 

[Aor82]

What I meant about 13th chords was just to hear how the 7 note scale of the moment sounded out when spaced out in 3rds. Extend the chord and you get your scale. In that concept, they are all chord tones. In the practice room on a piano play out all these notes, paying attention to the several tops (9-11-13) to the common bottoms (1-3-5-7). Hear how the different 13th chords sound, what's consonant, what's dissonant.

ie. (1-b3-5b7) with (b9-11-b13) or (9-11-b13) or (9-11-13)
That's a m7th chord with extensions that fit either "phrygian", "aoelian" or "dorian". But, when thinking of them as chord tones, it's just easier for me, (maybe you too?) to get the notes that sounds good and move on to the next measure. We're basically playing roots, thirds and fifths, and perhaps some sevenths, along with some other stuff to make it all flow.

I don't thinks it's time efficient to ponder names of 7 note scales on bass, when we are playing 4 notes and moving on (sometimes only 2 notes and moving on).
ie. Q: Was it Aoelian, or Dorian? A: Don't care, I didn't play the 6th. Moving on.

So for your Phrygian, if you had a m7th chord with a b9, that would be a good option especially if it had a b13 too. But what if it had a natural 13th instead? Ok well just play the nat 13 along with the regular notes and move on. Why waste time thinking what that 7 note scale is... and all those names? (2nd mode of melodic minor, Phrygian ♮6, Dorian ♭2, Javanese, or Phrygi-dorian ???) All for a m7 chord with (b9-11-13)

When I play guitar, I need to pay more attention to which 7 notes to use, as I can far more easily play more notes than I can on bass. I can go through 8 notes in a measure melodically, and play even 2-3 at a time.
On bass, I'm playing quarter notes, or half notes. Thinking chord tones instead of 7 note scale names is so much more to the point. Here I'm not doing fast runs of lots of notes.

Most of my time on bass is playing roots, thirds and fifths. It's not too different in vocabulary from Baroque bass (Vivaldi, Bach) etc. The other notes, 7, 2, 4, 6 come and go in a way that sounds good supporting the melody and the chords on top.

Try things out with someone playing chords for you (or backing tracks), or yourself at the piano. Hear what the options sound like.

and in case I want to play the 6th... what should I do?

m7 chord without b9 should not be related to phrygian?

 

[John Goldsby]

Tried it.
Didn't care for it.
Life goes on.
Thanks, as always, for your time and expertise, John.

Thanks for checking it out, Don. You just need to play it over and over and over real fast . . . you'll learn to love it. Plus, you'll think of me next time you are in bar 3 of an F blues

Hi John,

thank you very much for your analysis!!
once I've got these choruses from a teacher I had.

what do you think about this analysis about the 8th chorus?:

"Measure 1: The chord is F7, and 3 out of 4 notes (F, A, and C) are chord tones of F7. On beat 4 (a "weak beat") the composer uses a chromatic passing tone (B natural) to connect from chord tone C to chord tone Bb in the next measure.

Measure 2: In my opinion, this is a "chord substitution." The bassist is implying Gmin7-C7-F, the ultra-important "two five one" progression that every jazz musician absolutely MUST know. Looking at it from that perspective, we see that 3 out of 4 notes are chord tones (Bb is the root of Bb7 or the 3rd of Gmin7; C and E are the root and 3rd of C7). On beat 2 (a "weak beat") the composer uses a chromatic passing tone (B natural) to connect from chord tone Bb to chord tone C.

Measures 3 and 4: Same chord for 2 measures, so I will analyze them together. A common chord substitution would be to play F9 instead of F7. If you think of the chord as two bars of F9, then 6 out of 8 notes (F, G, A, C, F, A) are chord tones of F9. The composer uses 2 chromatic passing tones, both on the "weak beats": F# to connect chord tone F to chord tone G, and G# to connect chord tone G to chord tone A."

Thanks

Looks good Aor82 — You could argue that analysis, but I have a couple of alternate ways of thinking about the line:

Bar 2: The B is a leading tone to the 5th of the F7 (the note C), The notes C and E are a secondary dominant (implying a C7 chord) going back to the F7 in bar 3.

Bar 3: By putting the chromatic tones between F, G and A (on the weak beats as you point out), the line is stretched out and sounds chromatic rather than diatonic. Bar 3 starts on the root F, and uses three chromatic leading tones (F#, G, G#) into the 3rd of the chord (A) on beat one of bar 4. The harmony and sonority is anchored by the F on beat one in bar 3 and the A on beat one in bar 4.

Not only is it common to use one chromatic leading tone on beat 4, but bass players often lead into a target note with two or three half-steps. The chromatic resolution is just as strong as the V-I resolution.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

so when do I choose phrygian? lydian?...is it depends on the chord degree related to the present scale? that is being played?....Im totally confused. in order to do things right, I need to know whether the scale notes I choose to connect chord tones with are chromatic or not. this is what I've learnt. There is where my questions were came from.

Yes, it depends on what you called chord degree and what I would call function of the chord. On a III (Em7 in C major) it is Phrygian, on a IV (Fmaj7 in C major) it is Lydian. In minor it is basically the same but on the Vth degree (Dominant) you use either harmonic or melodic minor Vth degree which has a different scale structure than the church modes.
Keep in mind that jazz tunes change tonal centers quite often and quickly. Find the tonic center by finding (III-)(VI-)II-V(-I) chord progressions. The tonal center of the whole progression is the I, even if it is not played. Resubstitute any strange or chromatic progressing by tritone substitutions to find such progressions.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I encourage experimentation and, ear-training geek that I am, and written music fan that I am not withstanding, I don't encourage looking at transcriptions but instead doing it all by listening, and imitating if desired. I encourage my students, at the beginning, to write down their own lines but not others'.

When learning I listened to every Ray Brown recording I could find for months. I learned to play Ray Brown-inspired lines. I could barely read bass clef at the time (15yrs old), only chord charts, so can relate to this approach.

The other thing that really helped was playing with others as often as possible. Getting every idea you learn from your head to your fingers and to the bandstand as fast as possible really consolidated my playing.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I've always been too lazy(and busy) to do any hard core transcription, but am finding that even just doing about 8 bars is enough to learn a lot from. I used to do more scalar/chromatic walking, but transcribing some Ray Brown will surprise you when you see him making these huge chord tone leaps. This changed my approach to use chord tones as the landmarks of my line, but i think that can confuse folks new to walking that are looking for a fool proof formula for right and wrong. You soon realize such formulas don't really exist to create the best line possible, and that anything can work some of the time.

So when you start going down the road of which scale/mode to impose against each chord, the answer becomes "all of them". Depending on your goal in that moment and what's happening around you, you might make different choices.

Now my approach boils down to, connect chord tones and any notes in between are fair game. You'll develop your own preference for ways to accomplish this through listening to others(and/or transcribing), and personal experimentation. You'll then start developing your own walking vocabulary based on a combination of achieving what you hear others doing and holding onto your successful personal experiments.

 

[longfinger]

and in case I want to play the 6th... what should I do?

m7 chord without b9 should not be related to phrygian?

If you're focussing on the 6th, then likely you won't need to worry about the 9th because you've already gone to the next measure and the next chord. Focus on the 4 notes you want to play, and forget about the names of the 3 notes you didn't play. And keep the music moving forward.

A m7 chord with no instruction about upper extensions is open to interpretation. You can play the b9 or the 9. Ditto for the guitarist or pianist. But you all can't be doing different things at the same time without a "crunch" that most people will consider ugly.

Of course, ideas of ugly and beautiful are subjective to each tradition. That's why people listen a lot to the repertoire and tradition of music they want to be a part of. "Make it sound like that", will take us pretty far.

Keep playing and trying things out. Hear what it sounds like and go with what you prefer and with what works best in your groups.

 

[Aor82]

Yes, it depends on what you called chord degree and what I would call function of the chord. On a III (Em7 in C major) it is Phrygian, on a IV (Fmaj7 in C major) it is Lydian. In minor it is basically the same but on the Vth degree (Dominant) you use either harmonic or melodic minor Vth degree which has a different scale structure than the church modes.
Keep in mind that jazz tunes change tonal centers quite often and quickly. Find the tonic center by finding (III-)(VI-)II-V(-I) chord progressions. The tonal center of the whole progression is the I, even if it is not played. Resubstitute any strange or chromatic progressing by tritone substitutions to find such progressions.

so this is summarize all this huge thread. in the III degree of a major scale I apply Phrygian mode for the walking purpose, the II degree would be walking on Dorian, and the IV degree would be walking on Lydian.

 

[lurk]

The most recorded jazz bassist and, in my opinion, the best walking bassist ever (well alright, I love PC and Israel and Ray and Sam too) has written a brilliant, deceptively simple book called Building Jazz Bass Lines. Anyone looking for help with walking should own and study it.

 

[damonsmith]

Modes figure in but are not a catch all. First of all, every note of every scale has a harmonic function. Randomly throwing them at a chord is rarely going to be musical.
Squirting all the tubes of an oil paint will get you something, but not a painting of a barn and some cows.
You are trying to make a walking line - that is a specific thing. One of the most important things I've ever learned was in a jazz lesson is once you hit beat 1 of a chord in jazz you are on your way to the next one. It is truly is about the "changes".
A good walking line is a mix of strong, swinging quarter notes, melodic ideas, chord and scale tones, leading tones and chromatic movement. Most importantly, knowing when it is time for each ingredient. You just need to spend time slowly adding each element to tunes you know in a few years you will have a good sense of what to do.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

so this is summarize all this huge thread. in the III degree of a major scale I apply Phrygian mode for the walking purpose, the II degree would be walking on Dorian, and the IV degree would be walking on Lydian.

Yes, since they are all the same notes of the I major scale just with a different root and different chord notes.
Of course this is only the basic, chromatic passing and leading notes and all that other stuff mentioned by others before add some nice spice but depending on the musical style needs to be avoided sometimes. In some styles you even need to reduce the use of non-chord scale tones.
But you got it. In minor I is generally aeolian and III ionian so shifted by two degrees, but I think you already got that too.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

@Tom Lane Thad Jones was a trumpet/flugelhorn player (one of the greatest), not a piano player. He was also a composer and big band arranger (arguably the most influential in the past 50 years). Big band arrangers sometimes write specific lines for the bass that complement what's happening in the horn sections. Stock arrangements usually have written bass lines so less experienced players have something to fall back on. But arrangers like Thad, Brookmeyer and Holman often wrote out bass lines because they were integral parts of the arrangement.

Absolutely true. His arrangments are fantastic, every musician should listen to them and study them. The basslines are often to be played as written, but check the recordings too. On the other hand, Sammy Nestico always writes basslines (as you say, for the less experienced players), but also said something like this in one of his books: "Any decent bassplayer can play a better bassline than I can write".

 

[DoubleMIDI]

When I played in a big band, I often had arrangements with chord symbols at the improvised parts and written lines in the ensemble parts, so the bassline fits into the moving chords of the wind instruments.

When I had completely written basslines, I always guessed that these were transcriptions of big band arrangements taken from recordings where originally written arrangements were not available.

Sometimes there have been completely written out lines in an extra part for beginners, but that had more often be the case for the drums than for bass in my experience (which might indeed be a bit limited).