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Double Bass Questions for AMT users-

pmad_bass

pmad_bass

Supporting Member
Oct 24, 2004
614
278
Maryland
#1
1.) AMT Mic on lower volume gigs vs moderate to higher volume (not stupid loud) gigs-

Do you find a difference in the degree of tonal benefit deciding to use your Mic on lower volume gigs as compared to those requiring more volume? (This comparison assumes running the mic to your amp and not the house.)

i.e. Would you just chose the ease of use of a Pickup for the lower volume gigs as you may be getting sufficient natural acoustic sound coming of the bass itself....or if your a tone freak (like me)- do you find that going the extra mile and using the pickup on lower volume gigs makes the desired difference? This would be directed to those who do blending (mic and pickup), run just the mic straight or would elect for the ease of use of just the pickup- ala "set it and forget it. "
On the other end of the spectrum, obviously music style\louder gigs (and setting) could potentially introduce feedback issues. The same holds true (albeit to a lesser extent) with pickups like say- The Realist....Though I would imagine a pickup to be less problematic with regards to feedback. In these situations- I realize and have experienced (many times) the difficulty in getting "my sound but louder." Do you, your fellow musicians and\or those in the audience notice a discernable acoustic tonal difference with the mic or are the subtitles more often than not lost in the wash of sound coming from the band.

2.) S25b vs. S25b-TP-
I have yet to check either of these out but in general have hear\read a lot of positive comments. For the sake of argument - I assume the Mics themselves to be of the same or similar quality, with one being permanently mounted on the tailpiece and the other being removable but mounted on the body via the clamp apparatuses.

The S25b-TP looks to be very discreet (visually), very solidly mounted and very convenient as it is permanently mounted. Does the fact that it is permanently mounted posse issues? i.e 1.) Putting the case on and traveling with while mounted and or 2.) Are there times when practicing or playing purely acoustically that the mic is somewhat of a bothersome presence.

The S25b on the other hand offers removability, though to me it appears clunky and could be more likely to get bumped and or knocked off the bass when compared to the S25b-TP. With it being removable- I imagine one may elect to not always go the extra mile and take it with\set it up for the lower volume gigs I mentioned in the first part of this post. I'm sure that connecting this model is not difficult in and of itself but might present more of a chore that one may elect to do. I imagine one might elect to use the S25b-TP more often then had they owned the S25b as one is always there, ready to go ant the other an extra step in setup\teardown.

For those who have or have tried the S25b and\or S25b-TP- could you provide feedback addressing the issues I have highlighted above and\or which would you recommend? Sorry to be so lengthy.

Regards,
pmad_bass
 
#3
Wow. Um ...

First, I use a Beyer dynamic now. My AMT is my backup. I rarely have a PA, so the mic goes to my amp.

Second, I'm no star-studded pro. Check my profile if you like.

Re: #1 - Short answer, "Yes."

Long answer - I don't think my bandmates or the vast majority of audience members can tell or care whether I use a pickup or a mic for low volume amplified gigs. But I can.

There are times when I just use a pickup, in short due to my own laziness. But those times are rare. Yes I really enjoy the difference in sound when there is no pickup. For me, mic only or no amp is as good as it gets tone-wise. Practically speaking though, my gigs can get loud, so most of the time I blend.

In every case, mic or pickup or both, I "set it and forget it." The only things I adjust are volume, blend (if applicable), and sometimes the freq for the HPF for the pickup channel.

Re: #2 - I prefer the flexibility of the non-TP version over the convenience of the TP. Cartage and set up is really no big deal. Might be easier to experiment with mic locations away from the vertical centerline of the bass with the non-TP model. Certainly easier to switch from one bass to the next, or remove for aesthetics.

Hope that helps some. Make a good sound! :)
 
#5
I have both the side mounted and the tail piece mounted versions of the AMT. The microphone is the same only the mount is different. Both are easy to take on and off. The tail piece version takes about 45-60 seconds to put on or take off while the side mounted version takes about 5-10 seconds. I have the tail piece mounted version on my Kolstein travel bass which is too thin for the side mounted version. I leave it on all of the time and have had absolutely NO issues with leaving it on. That said, I leave the side mounted one on my '28 Juzek all of the time too and have no troubles doing that. It doesn't get knocked around in the case nor does it scratch the bass.

I have to blend the mic with a pickup with both the '28 and the Kolstein. I've tried to get both happening with mic alone but it just doesn't cut it. The acoustic volume off the Kolstein is too low to get a good mic signal and the '28 mics better a little further away from the bass. They both sound much better if you set the pickup sound and then blend the mic into the sound. This softens the attack characteristic and helps to reduce the piezo-iness of the sound. In all honesty, I doubt that anyone other me can tell the difference if I use the mic or not but I can tell the difference and I find it much easier to play with a more natural sounding attack.

I always use both mic and pickup but as the volume goes up, the ratio of the mic to pickup goes down due to mic feedback. I use the AI downfiring cabinet and can get some pretty good mic volume before feedback though. I've A-B'd the AI and Wizzy 10 and I can get subjectively about double the volume before feedback with the AI so I can get some mic into the signal even at stupid loud volumes. Last night's gig was stupid loud on a very small stage. I was standing almost on top of my amp and right next to the drums. I could still get some mic into the signal, not as much as I'd have liked to but it was still quite audible. I didn't notice any drum leakage despite being about 8 inches from a cymbal. There probably was some but it wasn't obvious.

If I were to buy another mic, I'd probably buy the tail mount one. While the side mounted one works just fine, the tail piece one is a little more out of the way. They are identical otherwise.

mark
 
#6
Pmad - I'll offer a few comments based on my experience with the AMT (the sidemount version). Others may have a very different opinion on your questions.

1. I don't find enough of a tonal difference to make it worthwhile. I now try to go unplugged for low-volume gigs and it generally works (and it has made me a stronger player). The AMT can produce a nice sound but it requires an extra box and set of cables, because it comes with its own preamp that you have to use.

2. I have also found that the AMT doesn't work well with combo amps. It hardly produced any sound for me at all, with the two combo amps I played it through. It works much better with separate amp-and-speaker components. I don't know why this is, I'm not an electronics guy.

3. Neither my band mates nor the audience can tell any difference in tone when it comes to mic vs pickup. They can only tell whether they can hear me or not. To my own ear, the mic produces a more organic sound but also a sound that's more easily lost in the mix; the pickup provides more clarity. For arco, however, the sound of a pickup truly sucks, so I rarely bow with a pickup.

4. I haven't used the tailpiece version of the AMT so I can't offer any insight into tailpiece vs. sidemount.

5. The outcome of all of the above, sadly, is that I have a rather expensive AMT mic that I don't use.

I know there are others here on TB who really like the AMT and use it a lot. I'm guessing that most are plugging into a house PA.

Hope this helps.
 
#7
greitzer said:
I know there are others here on TB who really like the AMT and use it a lot. I'm guessing that most are plugging into a house PA.
Click to expand...

That's pretty close to my situation. It's really nice by itself through the house. At the Four Seasons Wailea, where I have a jazz duo, they've installed a new Bose 13-speaker system in the ceiling...I'm looking forward to trying it out there. I guess I've also used it for some jazz shows at concerts halls. Tailpiece mount, BTW. All this is moot until I get the spindly cable repaired yet again.

In amp situations, it's often just not worth it. The pickup often sounds as good or better by itself. It does work pretty well with my iAmp 800 combo, which is pretty hi-fi. I sometime blend it with the pickup through my old Raven Labs blender.
 
#8
Thanks all for the (detailed) responses to my questions and concerns.

I am leaning more and more toward getting a mic (probably tailpiece AMT). On my former bass I had the Barbera- which worked well for me. I just have not decided to fork over the bucks for a Barbera on my current bass....so I am currently left using my old Realist.

I think I druther the Barbera to the Realist though. Not having previously worked with a mic- I've been wondering if I'd get more of the sound that is immediately coming off the front of the bass as opposed to what the Realist provides.

When I play with the Realist (and even the Barbera) I'm always thinking to myself- "This isn't the way me or my bass sound......something seems added and yet something seems missing" if that makes sense. The sound seems pinched, not open, ...just a ringy\stringy sound. devoid of air or wood.

I'm thinking that what I am (and am not) hearing when going "Pizezo" (not to pick on the Realist) is likely not noticed so much by band mates\audience.....especially on louder hits (in boomier rooms). But I also think that given a medium to lower volume gig, in a room conducive to live music- I'm probably going to be happier with a mic.

Now the question becomes- which one? If I go AMT- I think I'll go Tailpiece mount.

I have a bow quiver that threads through the string holes on the Kolstein tailpiece. Would this inhibit installation (and\or removal)?

Regards,
-PM
 
#9
pmad_bass said:
Now the question becomes- which one? If I go AMT- I think I'll go Tailpiece mount.

I have a bow quiver that threads through the string holes on the Kolstein tailpiece. Would this inhibit installation (and\or removal)?

Regards,
-PM
Click to expand...

The bow quiver through the string holes probably won't work with the tailpiece mount as it mounts in the string holes. When I installed the tailpiece mount on my Kolstein I had to take the Stat-B pickup off because the plug mounts through the E string hole. It was either the tailpiece mount or the Stat-B. Since the mic was essentially to replace the Stat-B, I took the Stat off. If you want to use the strings holes, get the side mounted version. My sidemounted one has been on my big bass for months. I never take it off. The mic is always in the right position when I get to the gig; I just plug it in.

mark
 
#11
Good advise all.

I may rethink going AMT....especially since I'd hate to lose the bow quiver (if I were to go with the tailpiece version)....though it looks like the quiver could still be attached.

Also- Two people on this thread have AMT's but use other mic's....hmmmm.

For those using Mics other than the AMT- do you just use an XLR adapter to convert to 1/4 in? Or do you have to also use a pre-amp?

Another question/s comes to mind regarding sweet spots. (I'm sure they are different from bass to bass.)-

The AMT seems to be seen as used over the f-hole...though this may not be the case with all users. Users of mic's other than AMT seem to often do the rubber band thing with the bridge legs.

For the AMT owners- Do you find the sweet spot is in fact over the f-hole, or do you swing it more toward the bridge?

For those that do the rubber band thing- is the Sweet spot on your bass in the bridge area or does this location suffice given the alternative of having to find some other means of attaching the mic?

A former teacher of mine used a portion of a gooseneck attached (tapped) to the underside of the tailpiece and just used a standard mic clip.
 
#12
pmad_bass said:
Good advise all.

I may rethink going AMT....Also- Two people on this thread have AMT's but use other mic's....hmmmm.

For those using Mics other than the AMT- do you just use an XLR adapter to convert to 1/4 in? Or do you have to also use a pre-amp?

Another question/s comes to mind regarding sweet spots. (I'm sure they are different from bass to bass.)-

The AMT seems to be seen as used over the f-hole...though this may not be the case with all users. Users of mic's other than AMT seem to often do the rubber band thing with the bridge legs.
Click to expand...

Pmad, when I do use a mic I use the Sennheiser e609 Silver. I wrap a dishtowel around it and stuff inside the tailpiece, so the mic head is maybe an inch and a half or so off the bass, right near the top of the tailpiece.

I don't plug it in XLR, I have a 1/4-inch jack adapter and plug it into the regular input of my amp. I get more usable volume with the 1/4-inch than with the XLR.

Based on my experience, don't put it over the f-hole, you'll get screaming feedback (at least it does on my bass). The AMT folks have said in interviews that the ad photo showing the mic over the f-hole was set up by a marketing guy, it's not where they recommend putting the mic. When I used it, the nearest-to-sweet spot I could find was near the G-side foot of the bridge, just above the foot as I remember.
 
#14
Never directly over the f-hole. You get crazy amounts of feedback if you do that. I put mine just to the inside of the G-side f-hole between the bridgefoot and the f-hole.

Here's your problem. You have to take what anyone says here with a huge grain of salt because every bass is going to react to the mic (or a pickup) differently. In addition to the '28 Juzek which is my main bass, I have a '74 Juzek. I can run the AMT by itself with the '74 and it sounds great-without a pickup at all. I can't do that with the '28. I use a BP-100 with the '28 and it sounds great (coupled with the mic). The BP-100 doesn't work at all with the '74. Two basses but the set up that works on one bass doesn't work at all on the other and that's with the same player, same luthier doing the setup, same strings, same pickups (not just the same brand but the SAME pickup), same microphone and same strings. Start adding in all of the variables that come with different basses, players, strings etc., you start to see that it gets complicated very quickly.

This is your journey. It's good to get advice and you MIGHT be able to narrow things down a little but ultimately, you're going to have to try things for yourself. You'll probably go through a lot of gear that won't work very well for you. You'll also find some gear that's gotten panned here but works great for you. I use a BP-100 for jazz on the '28 and I get a nice fat but clear sound out of it. You ask most people what they think of the BP-100 and they'll tell you it stinks big time and for many basses it does (it sounds like fingernails on a blackboard on the '74). It happens to work really well with the '28.

My own journey with the AMT started a few years ago when I bought my first one. I couldn't get it to work at all. It was horrible. It ended up in the closet with all of the other gear that didn't work. The only mic that I liked on my bass was an EV RE 20 which is big and heavy but it sounded great. It also required carrying a mic stand around and that was just too much effort. Every 6 months or so, I'd get the AMT out and try it again with the same results. About 2 months ago, I got it out again and I don't know what I did differently but it worked. It sounded great mixed with the pickup. I've now gigged enough with it to know it's limitations.

Maybe your solution is to try a cheaper mic first. It might get the effect you're looking for and you'll be done. Maybe your solution is the AMT. Maybe it is going with a different pickup like a Schertler Dyn or Stat-B.

Good luck.

mark
 
#16
pmad_bass said:
For those using Mics other than the AMT- do you just use an XLR adapter to convert to 1/4 in? Or do you have to also use a pre-amp?
Click to expand...
You could use an adapter. I don't have to now because my AI Focus has inputs that accept either 1/4" or XLR. Before I got the Focus, I plugged the XLR for the mic into a D-TAR Solstice, and then ran the output of the Solstice to my amp.
pmad_bass said:
Another question/s comes to mind regarding sweet spots. (I'm sure they are different from bass to bass.)-

The AMT seems to be seen as used over the f-hole...though this may not be the case with all users. Users of mic's other than AMT seem to often do the rubber band thing with the bridge legs.

For the AMT owners- Do you find the sweet spot is in fact over the f-hole, or do you swing it more toward the bridge?

For those that do the rubber band thing- is the Sweet spot on your bass in the bridge area or does this location suffice given the alternative of having to find some other means of attaching the mic?

A former teacher of mine used a portion of a gooseneck attached (tapped) to the underside of the tailpiece and just used a standard mic clip.
Click to expand...
For me and my bass, the main sweet spot for both my mics is as depicted in my previous post - namely, at the mid-point between the bridge and the end of the FB. There are other spots on my bass that sound good in different ways, but that one spot between the f-holes seems to have it all for me. Over the f-holes is too boomy. Too close to the bridge (like between the legs) and it sounds too tight and constrained on my bass.

But you're absolutely right - The sweet spot is going to vary depending on your bass - and maybe even moreso your ears and personal taste. Even making small adjustments to the distance from the table and the angle of the mic can sometimes make a difference. YMMV ...
 
#18

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