Questions on bass technique

[lfmn16]

Bass guitar has no real tradition of playing because the instrument is reletively new, and what we are now becoming to understand about technique is only in its infancy.
Technique has to be functional, ( within that there will be everything you desire from your technique to achieve what you want to play). Add to this the demands we place on our hands and bodies in life, never mind playing, and it all comes down to good and bad techniques.

I'll have to disagree with this. A lot of jazz players were, and are, schooled in Simandl technique which has been around for over 100 years. Even the electric bass has been around since the 50's, which is 60 years. Electric bass may not have the heritage of the violin, but it has certainly been around long enough to have a tradition.

As far as function goes, technique depends on what function you are trying to achieve. I'm sure when Larry Graham first slapped the bass, people told him to stop, that it was bad technique and didn't sound right; likely the first people that tapped got a cold response, the first time someone used feedback, etc. Jaco played too many notes, bass isn't a solo instrument, the purpose of the bass is to change the note on the drummers bass drum.

Further, as much as I hate political correctness, as long as we label technique as good and bad, we alienate a whole group of players. There may be reasons why someone would use "bad" technique to get a certain sound. Good and bad imply absolutes and there are no absolutes in playing. We should encourage innovation and thinking outside the box and help new players to learn traditional methods and then take them to new heights.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I'll have to disagree with this. A lot of jazz players were, and are, schooled in Simandl technique which has been around for over 100 years. Even the electric bass has been around since the 50's, which is 60 years. Electric bass may not have the heritage of the violin, but it has certainly been around long enough to have a tradition.

As far as function goes, technique depends on what function you are trying to achieve. I'm sure when Larry Graham first slapped the bass, people told him to stop, that it was bad technique and didn't sound right; likely the first people that tapped got a cold response, the first time someone used feedback, etc. Jaco played too many notes, bass isn't a solo instrument, the purpose of the bass is to change the note on the drummers bass drum.

Further, as much as I hate political correctness, as long as we label technique as good and bad, we alienate a whole group of players. There may be reasons why someone would use "bad" technique to get a certain sound. Good and bad imply absolutes and there are no absolutes in playing. We should encourage innovation and thinking outside the box and help new players to learn traditional methods and then take them to new heights.

Great post, but i feel you are may be countering your point. Good and bad is about alienating the aspects of the playing and pinpointing the functionality, not have an excuse or get out by saying it is traditional or different, and if that alienates certain players let it be so.
You cite Larry Graham, so we look at the function of his technique, how does he get the sound he is hearing.
Second point to consider is the equipment and tecnology there to maximise it? Could the basses of the day and the amps and cab give the tonal responses he wanted?
In hitting the string with his thumb he has a the function he requires, but is the function good or bad? Does he hit to hard ?
Does he put his wrist under un-necessary pressure? Is his thumb joint in any position of stress or potential injury? Can he recreate the same sounds playing softer, etc etc?

Jaco played the correct amount of notes for what he wanted to convey in his playing, nothing about good or bad technique in that point it is a personal opinion of the listener not the player.

What you post implys that Double Bass technique is desirable for Electric Bass,,,which it is not, the two instrument have a totally different technique, they have to because they work in different planes. By that mean DB is vertical to the body and BG horizontal based, but don't take that literal it just means in relation to what the body can do in relation to them.

First and obvious difference is that DB sits on the ground and BG sits on the body or hangs from the body. So playing a DB you can bend over it gain access to the upper regions of the fingerboard, on a BG you extend your arm to gain access to the lower regions of the board. You can move the BG in relation to the body, you move the body in relation to the DB.
The Simandl part that is functional is using the ring and little finger as one in support...but why is this desirable? Well its function is to support the little finger, so it has sound function for those that use it, and its function works on an BG to an extent.

Like i said the instruments of old never really changed and were flawed in design for cosmetic purposes, there looks were considered as important as there sound, there playability never really came into it. There design was based in symmetry, there construction based on what they knew, and what they knew was based on the material available. So the option of a playable action was not even remotely close to what we can have today with the woods, construction, glues, truss rod technology, metals etc, strong and stable can be slim in todays world.....not an option to Stradivarus in his time.

As for a solo instrument or it being part of a bass drums job.............i'm sure others will deal with that point, but i will point out that when i was in an orchestra i had no bass drum note to change.

 

[lfmn16]

What you post implys that Double Bass technique is desirable for Electric Bass,,,which it is not, the two instrument have a totally different technique, they have to because they work in different planes. By that mean DB is vertical to the body and BG horizontal based, but don't take that literal it just means in relation to what the body can do in relation to them.

Actually, I'm not implying double bass technique is desirable for the electric bass, I'm saying it. I have played both, started Simandl on electric and moved to upright with little problem. OBVIOUSLY they are on different plains and I'm not suggesting that anyone hold their electric bass like a string bass. You have to use common sense when applying the technique from double bass to electric bass.

Like i said the instruments of old never really changed and were flawed in design for cosmetic purposes, there looks were considered as important as there sound, there playability never really came into it.

Never heard this before. I'd have to see some sources.

Frankly I'm not sure what point you are trying to make other than disagreeing with me point by point. I don't think we'll make further headway in a discussion, so I'll end it here (my side anyway) and leave it to the forum to decide what parts of my posts they agree with.

 

[anonymous122511]

Like i said the instruments of old never really changed and were flawed in design for cosmetic purposes, there looks were considered as important as there sound, there playability never really came into it. There design was based in symmetry, there construction based on what they knew, and what they knew was based on the material available. So the option of a playable action was not even remotely close to what we can have today with the woods, construction, glues, truss rod technology, metals etc, strong and stable can be slim in todays world.....not an option to Stradivarus in his time.

People interested in the evolution of instruments and technique will find The Art of Piano Playing by George Kochevitsky well worth reading. It takes only a little effort to apply the physical principles he's talking about on the piano to any instrument.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Actually, I'm not implying double bass technique is desirable for the electric bass, I'm saying it. I have played both, started Simandl on electric and moved to upright with little problem. OBVIOUSLY they are on different plains and I'm not suggesting that anyone hold their electric bass like a string bass. You have to use common sense when applying the technique from double bass to electric bass.



Never heard this before. I'd have to see some sources.

Frankly I'm not sure what point you are trying to make other than disagreeing with me point by point. I don't think we'll make further headway in a discussion, so I'll end it here (my side anyway) and leave it to the forum to decide what parts of my posts they agree with.

No problems it cool to discuss things.

So here is a short extract of the kind of information that can be found on line

The history of the double bass is tightly coupled to the development of string technology, as it was the advent of overwound gut strings which first rendered the instrument more generally practicable, as wound strings attain low notes within a smaller overall string diameter than unwound strings.

Prior to the mid-20th century as a rule, double bass strings were usually made of gut, but since that time, steel strings have largely replaced gut strings, because steel strings hold their pitch better and yield more volume when played with the bow. Gut strings are also more vulnerable to changes of humidity and temperature, and they break much more easily than steel strings. Gut strings are nowadays mostly used by bassists who perform in baroque ensembles, rockabilly bands, traditional blues bands, and bluegrass bands. Gut strings provide the dark, "thumpy" sound heard on 1940s and 1950s recordings.

The late Jeff Sarli, a blues upright bassist, stated that "starting in the 1950s, they began to reset the necks on basses for steel strings", and double bass players switched from gut strings to steel strings. Rockabilly and bluegrass bassists also prefer gut because it is much easier to perform the "slapping" upright bass style (in which the strings are percussively slapped and clicked against the fingerboard) with gut strings than with steel strings. (For more information on slapping, see the sections below on Modern playing styles, Double bass in bluegrass music, Double bass in jazz, and Double bass in popular music).

The change from gut to steel has also affected the instrument's playing technique over the last hundred years, because playing with steel strings allows the strings to be set up closer to the fingerboard, and, additionally, steel strings can be played in higher positions on the lower strings and still produce clear tone.
The classic 19th century Franz Simandl method does not utilize the low E string in higher positions because with older gut strings set up high over the fingerboard, the tone was not clear in these higher positions. However, with modern steel strings, bassists can play with clear tone in higher positions on the low E and A strings, particularly when modern lighter-gauge, lower-tension steel strings are used.

Plus just two links to the thousand out there about makers and the design innovations they can use for functionality of play, because of better construction materials now available.

Enjoy.



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AES Fine Instruments - Hand Made Basses

 

[Fergie Fulton]

People interested in the evolution of instruments and technique will find The Art of Piano Playing by George Kochevitsky well worth reading. It takes only a little effort to apply the physical principles he's talking about on the piano to any instrument.

Thanks for the link, look forward to the read when it arrives.

 

[MEKer]

Thumb should always remain around the center of the back of the neck.

Not so. That comes from classical DB playing and does not need apply as a "Rule" for electric bass. If some like it as a technique for themselves--hooray. If some disregard it and are good on the instrument---hooray. I've seen some hooked thumbs from awesome players.