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Double Bass Rabbath still cool?

I studied it with someone two away from Rabbath. I think it is fine if the beginner is set on being a classical soloist.
The set up, pivots and approach to sound production just does not transfer to the wider needs of a working bass player playing jazz, classical and whatever else is thrown at them, as I keep saying, such a person also needs to be well aware of Rabbath's contribution.

For starters, you are just never going to get a powerful pizzicato tone like William Parker or Paul Chambers using that system.
You can, however with the left hand parts of Simandl and Petracchi.

I think some methods are better to start with than others, but I don't think we can get every single thing we need from any of them.

Have you ever met Rabbath? He recommends the strings he uses for solo playing(not orchestral, I don't see Ali Yazdanfar or Etienne Lafrance playing on Corellis in the orchestra even though they're close to Rabbath), like what Ellison recommends about having a different bass for solo works and playing orchestral pieces.

You know Rabbath played on an Italian(I heard) bass when he was in the Paris Opera right? He had orchestra strings on too, so I don't think it's strict like you've interpreted it just because he endorses Corelli strings.

So how does Rabbath's system stop you from getting a powerful pizzicato tone?
 
I studied it with someone two away from Rabbath. I think it is fine if the beginner is set on being a classical soloist.

Or if you're Rufus Reid or Lynn Seaton or Glenn Moore or Renaud Garcia Fons for starters.

The set up, pivots and approach to sound production just does not transfer to the wider needs of a working bass player playing jazz, classical and whatever else is thrown at them, as I keep saying, such a person also needs to be well aware of Rabbath's contribution.

Most working pros whether they reject him or not are quite aware of Rabbath. Pivots were a part of orchestral playing long before Rabbath. Many orchestra players I have taken lessons from, (CSO, Chicago Lyric Opera, Minnesota, Boston and NYP) all advocate a pivot approach in order to most accurately play speedy passages. Most of them don't really subscribe to the Rabbath thing.


For starters, you are just never going to get a powerful pizzicato tone like William Parker or Paul Chambers using that system.

See above

You can, however with the left hand parts of Simandl
Though Simandl is the preferred method here in the states, there are others that preceeded his. Remember it is was at one point the New Method and as such was probably met with the same kind of reception as you present for Rabbath back when it was published. Bottesini wrote a method before him, so did Frantisek Cerny (which is awesome BTW). They both were pretty good at playing I think, judging by their compositions.

and Petracchi.

Petracchi advocates pivots all over the place right from the start. Pivoting from a half step between the thumb and first finger, than a whole step, then a minor third is the crux of his simplified higher technique. It applies down lower as well, see exercise 14. When I saw him in recital, his fingers danced all over the fingerboard. Again, like Rabbath, his method needs to be explained fully by someone who studied with him.

I think some methods are better to start with than others, but I don't think we can get every single thing we need from any of them.

The one that gets you playing music the quickest is probably it.

I'm not a Rabbath freak or anything, but any method that advocates six positions vs. geez I don't even know how many positions off hand, I don't really want to count, suffice it to say feel free to count up from 11 (I didn't do book II), my fingerboard goes to D, can't be bad. Also advocating no fear of the thumb position by introducing soon is something any free improvisor has got to appreciate. I think Rabbath has a lot to say that is really helpful and has helped in the renaissance in bass we see today. It's definitely worth a second glance. Especially going through Book 3 with a knowledgeable teacher.

Having met Rabbath and sat in on a master class with him, I can definitely say this. He has a profound joy for the bass and what can be done on it. He would never tell you your opinions are wrong or there is one way to do anything. It his method of playing bass. He has played as a soloist and in the orchestra. He studied the Nanny book and went to Paris to study with him because he had so much reverence for him. Unfortunately he had already passed on. It's his method and plenty of people have used it or at least parts of it (or the Vance books which are essentially a hybrid of Rabbath and Suzuki and is in my opinion the best method for absolute beginners. I think Simandl is an intermediate text)and are either working in orchestras or are going to. In the end, as my dad used to say the proof is in the pudding and he can play his @$$ off.



Just my 2¢
 
I am not against it. In my experience it has seemed to work better when the musician has also looked at the other methods.
All I am saying is none of them are enough on their own.
The sound and set up thing could be from so many bassists also getting caught up in Rabbath's playing style.
I saw him play a few times, he was amazing. Once I saw him play with Ray Brown in SF.
 
Funny. Book 1 seems beneficial for almost anyone...

If Rabbath's left hand system is so detrimental to pizz sound, why was he embraced so strongly by Ray Brown and John Clayton?

IME, a couple of his greatest contributions are the simplification and demystification of the thumb position, and the emphasis upon relaxed bow technique... I personally use these ideals with the German grip!

It is clear that he does not advocate rejecting other traditions, commenting often that one must choose what works best for each player under each set of circumstances.:D
 
If Rabbath's left hand system is so detrimental to pizz sound, why was he embraced so strongly by Ray Brown and John Clayton?:D

I never said it was. I just said you wouldn't get it from that method. Obviously, those guys already got it from somewhere else.
I love Rabbath, I just don't advocate having blinders on about it and I don't accept it as a be all/end all.
 
you cant tell me Ode D'Espagne doesnt build great, strong, intricate pizz technique

To side with Damon, and in the sense of building a strong pizz for jazz, no that piece won't do it.

The jazz pizz is a very stylized sound that really demands development based on what Chambers, Brown, Reid, etc have done. Rabbath has his own style of pizz that he mixes with some flemenco strums that doesn't sound like any pizz you would hear on a jazz album.

I still love Rabbath's playing and contributions to the bass.

-Pat
 
I've only been playing for a year, but I myself have never played a Simandl etude. My teacher (Who I am sadly out of touch with, having moved) tossed a Rabbath etude and a Vivaldi sonata at me after about two weeks. Granted, I had an audition to play in a couple of months (long story), but the point is, I got it. I understood exactly why Rabbath wrote every note where he did. Being something of a pragmatist, I feel that his methods accomplish so much. It takes you outside of conventional teachings to make you better at conventional things.
 
Gonna have to agree with Damon here -- Rabbath is always talking about Nanny (good or bad).

And I think Damon is making a larger point, as well: you need to look back past Rabbath himself for context. This is true of any discipline. If you were a physicist, you wouldn't just read Hawking and Einstein and stop there. You'd also study Newton, Copernicus and Ptolemy.
 
I studied with Francois for 4 years in Paris (and continue to study with him!- I currently work in a European orchestra) And I've also studied with traditional teachers (Hurst, IU).
I will say this: Francois has a very thought out approach to the instrument. It has occured to me that not many people truly understand the degree to which his technique can aid us. Its clear that playing on that set-up (correlis, low action, etc) will not work in orchestra, but in every other way, a clear understanding of his method, can and will give the player tools to play most passages quite a bit easier than with previous methods. Not many have mastered the principles of his ideas in their entirety. After 12 years of knowing him and studying his method, I'm sad to say that I've only JUST begun to understand certain seemingly basic things. For example, bow hold.
The reason is that few teachers really talk about it or teach it properly. Finally after all this time it has clicked. I'm only one of the many that have had this issue, as, even at graduate levels, few french bow players, in my opinion really "Get It".
But so you know, it took Francois a LONG time to "get it" himself, but thats how things work. Being a musician is a lifetime affair. Francois once told me, that when HE stops improving, that's when its over. He sounds better to me NOW, then 10 years ago!!! and thats the truth. Well thats my two cents! Take care bass brothers!
 
i would also like to add, that though Francois studied some of the Nanny etude books- as he found them casually in a shop in Syria- he did not study with Nanny himself, as Nanny had died when Francois finally reached Paris. Francois told me that as a naive young man, he intended to show Nanny his "discoveries" based on some of Nannys etudes.

So Francois was totally self taught, other than perhaps gleaning what information he could from other string players. Though thats my own perception of things.

In-other words, I don't believe its necessary at all to be aware of Nannys method to study Francois, and furthermore, it could be a handicap!

allthough, I don't think there is anything wrong with the etudes, provided you apply the proper fingerings, etc...

thats my take!