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Double Bass Rabbath technique thumb position

#21
I'm going through the Vance book 1 at the moment, and have a slightly unrelated, but I think relevant question.

When in "traditional" thumb position I was taught that my left arm should not be in contact with the body of the instrument at all. Yet when I see Rabbath play, I think at least some of the time when in 4th position he is placing his forearm on the shoulder of the double bass. I'm not sure if he does this only initially to locate the note properly, or if it is more often than this.

If someone can clarify this that would be great!

Thanks,

Jennifer
 
#23
endorka said:
When in "traditional" thumb position I was taught that my left arm should not be in contact with the body of the instrument at all. Yet when I see Rabbath play, I think at least some of the time when in 4th position he is placing his forearm on the shoulder of the double bass. I'm not sure if he does this only initially to locate the note properly, or if it is more often than this.
Click to expand...
The arm may touch the side of the bass, but shouldn't be resting on it or be used as some sort of GPS note-locator (I'm not sure how that would work).

Touching the side of the bass in thumb position is incidental. The position and orientation of the hand and arm should be feel completely natural; if that position happens to graze the bass' shoulder, no problem.

In the Rabbath method, you want to bring the full weight of your arm into the fingerboard. If your arm is resting on the side, you are removing that weight and forcing your hand and fingers to do all the work.
 
#24
PaulCannon said:
The arm may touch the side of the bass, but shouldn't be resting on it or be used as some sort of GPS note-locator (I'm not sure how that would work).

Touching the side of the bass in thumb position is incidental. The position and orientation of the hand and arm should be feel completely natural; if that position happens to graze the bass' shoulder, no problem.

In the Rabbath method, you want to bring the full weight of your arm into the fingerboard. If your arm is resting on the side, you are removing that weight and forcing your hand and fingers to do all the work.
Click to expand...

I don't buy this for one second. Rabbath is a genius and a super human bassist. Just because it works for him doesn't mean it will work for you.
The biggest problem with his method is presenting bad habits as legit technique - along side so many genuine innovations.

The inability of Rabbathites to even entertain this concept does more to turn interested parties off to the technique than anything else.
Lots of my personal heros have bad habits, I have tried my best not to take those on, not being a genius myself!

I say: study the method well, but arch the fingers and don't touch the side in TP!
 
#25
damonsmith said:
I don't buy this for one second. Rabbath is a genius and a super human bassist. Just because it works for him doesn't mean it will work for you.
The biggest problem with his method is presenting bad habits as legit technique - along side so many genuine innovations.

The inability of Rabbathites to even entertain this concept does more to turn interested parties off to the technique than anything else.
Lots of my personal heros have bad habits, I have tried my best not to take those on, not being a genius myself!

I say: study the method well, but arch the fingers and don't touch the side in TP!
Click to expand...
To me, a "bad" habit is something that hinders one's playing. Can you explain to me what the specific problem is with occasionally, lightly touching (NOT resting) one's arm on the edge of the top? I've taken the time to describe my understanding of the concepts in detail. This discussion could be more interesting if you did the same.

I used to always arch my fingers and had to train myself to collapse because I saw the benefits. For me, collapsed fingers make double stops much more accessible, solid and comfortable. Collapsing also puts more flesh on the string, which allows for a fuller tone and vibrato.

I've heard people warn of the dangers of collapsed fingers, but I am not familiar with anyone who has injured themselves from using this technique. François is 80 years old and has never injured himself playing. It's a habit, yes, but I'm hardly convinced it's a bad one.
 
#26
Thank you for the considered replies gentlemen, they are much appreciated in my quest to work out what is going on with this technique.

I've posted a link to Rabbath playing that illustrates this; at around 6 seconds into the clip, he can clearly be seen placing the inside of his left wrist against the side of the double bass - I had assumed to help him accurately locate the first note. Once the first note is established, he raises his wrist away from the instrument, presumably to bring the full weight of the arm to bear, as Paul mentions.

YouTube - Rabbath Crab 1

Jennifer
 
#27
endorka said:
Thank you for the considered replies gentlemen, they are much appreciated in my quest to work out what is going on with this technique.

I've posted a link to Rabbath playing that illustrates this; at around 6 seconds into the clip, he can clearly be seen placing the inside of his left wrist against the side of the double bass - I had assumed to help him accurately locate the first note. Once the first note is established, he raises his wrist away from the instrument, presumably to bring the full weight of the arm to bear, as Paul mentions.

YouTube - Rabbath Crab 1

Jennifer
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I have a great explanation for you. I'm not even sure if I see what you're talking about -- six seconds in, he isn't playing. When he does start, the first note is a harmonic. As harmonics don't require any weight to sound, he doesn't quite bring his wrist all the way up until the second note. I wouldn't read too much into that, either way.
 
#28
PaulCannon said:
To me, a "bad" habit is something that hinders one's playing. Can you explain to me what the specific problem is with occasionally, lightly touching (NOT resting) one's arm on the edge of the top? I've taken the time to describe my understanding of the concepts in detail. This discussion could be more interesting if you did the same.

I used to always arch my fingers and had to train myself to collapse because I saw the benefits. For me, collapsed fingers make double stops much more accessible, solid and comfortable. Collapsing also puts more flesh on the string, which allows for a fuller tone and vibrato.

I've heard people warn of the dangers of collapsed fingers, but I am not familiar with anyone who has injured themselves from using this technique. François is 80 years old and has never injured himself playing. It's a habit, yes, but I'm hardly convinced it's a bad one.
Click to expand...

I think lightly touching can quickly turn into resting on the body, which hinders both movement and resonance.
Again, pointing out that it works well for François isn't proof it will work for the average bassist.
As for arching the fingers, I think the arch is stronger and allows a more powerful contact with the string. Maybe François would sound even better if he arched his fingers, but who knows? He obviously sounds amazing but we are not him.
 
#29
For what it's worth, set up and shape of the bass do correlate with validity of touching the bass with your arm in TP and collapsing of fingers. Depending on if the bass has very high shoulders or sloped, easy to maneuver around shoulders, your arm touching the bass in TP might or might not work. And string height has a lot to do with whether or not you can collapse your finger effectively. If your strings are super-high, or set up for "jazz playing" you might not be able to collapse and still have flexibility and agility. But if your string-height is set up for more "classical" playing, collapsing is very easy and does not hinder your agility around the bass. It is 2011, and bass-making and set-up has developed a lot since 1940, so why people still make it more difficult than necessary I don't know. But if it's in the defense of sound and tone, cool :)
 
#30
Look at this Rabbath clip, he is touching the bass with his forearm in TP many times. I don't see anything wrong with touching it LIGHTLY. As long as you are not leaning or really resting on it you shouldn't worry about it. When playing the highest notes it feels almost unnatural to me not to touch the bass at all. Since you have to raise your shoulders too much to reach the highest notes and not touching the bass.

Anyway, check out this clip: YouTube - Francois Rabbath - Doris Duke Theatre
 
#31
What we are willing to accept in ourselves and what is put forth as "correct" and "advisible" from a respected pedgogue should not be the same thing.
I wouldn't loose any sleep over either my fingers collapsing or lightly touching the side (I catch myself doing both) - however I would not present it as "proper" to a paying student or even accept it as "correct" in the context of this forum!
 
#32
damonsmith said:
What we are willing to accept in ourselves and what is put forth as "correct" and "advisible" from a respected pedgogue should not be the same thing.
I wouldn't loose any sleep over either my fingers collapsing or lightly touching the side (I catch myself doing both) - however I would not present it as "proper" to a paying student or even accept it as "correct" in the context of this forum!
Click to expand...
Yes, but why? What reason is there not to? Does the side of the bass have cooties? Am I going to get a splinter? What's the big deal?

If you have to raise your shoulders or awkwardly position yourself to avoid the side of the bass, isn't that much worse? We all seem to be in agreement that resting the arm is a bad idea, but I don't buy your "slippery slope" argument. I let my arm brush the side of the bass and I have no desire to drop the arm into a rested position because the weight of my arm is already comfortably seated into the fingerboard, which is aided nicely by the collapsed fingers.

I'm not describing this in terms of "correct" or "proper." I'm describing it as irrelevant. François has some things that work for him. I've tried them and found they worked for me. Maybe they don't work for everyone, but there's no reason to limit yourself. Find what works for your anatomy and equipment.
 
#35
While this thread is fresh, would anyone be able to tell me what book would give the overview of a majority of his left han technique? I can only get one, but what about going straight to his left hand dvd? Also, does anyone have an opinion on the bent endpins? Not the drilled laborie, but the one that is individually bent?
Thanks,
Adan
 
#36
The scale fingerings in book three are where its at. To really learn rabbath technique, tool need to work with someone who really knows out well. Since arched fingerings were brought up, I will only say that the arched finger structure takes muscle to maintain. The collapsed finger structure takes bone and ligaments to maintain. I use both when I feel its appropriate to do so.
 

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