Rant about your band

[Pocket Dave]

Well, by this logic there's no band at all, so that's not going to work.

?

Not sure I follow. You've either got a BL or not. If so, let him lead.

Someone who is new here doesn't have the connections to fully get the job done, and I don't have phone numbers of everyone handy in this day and age; I connect with them through messenger, etc.

So saying "so-and-so can be reached on FB messenger, so-and-so responds best to texts, etc." is more trouble than reaching out and volunteering yourself to now have to manage that situation?

I don't know you, so yeah, I may have this all wrong - You might want to consider your motivations here. Such as possibly needing to control the relationship with the sub or new guy vs delegating to the BL what he signed up for to begin with, and otherwise just letting it go. Personally, I was once more the former and it was not a peaceful or joyous ride for the most part.

He's going to know I referred him anyway. That extra step just makes it look weird.

I'm also all about networking, and paying that forward is part of the deal.

Exactly - He's going to know. Personally, I'll even tell the BL, "mention my name so he knows your're not coming out of left field" just to be sure the guy knows who the referral's coming from. I get a lot of return-referrals.

If I have a minute, I'll even text or messenger the guy saying "(BL) is going to contact you."

Just so I don't have to manage the situation going forward. Last thing I want to do is get stuck in the middle of any miscommunications. I'm not going to be responsible for any loss-in-translations.

On a personal level, I also want the gig to succeed. I don't want to be up there on an important gig without the personnel we need. It makes ME look bad on the one night when press and videographers are going to be there. Why would I turn my back on someone who needs my help for that?

You're making it sound like wanting to be helpful is a defined negative, and I don't really believe that. In an ideal world, we help each other, and everyone benefits.

What I do believe is that people show me who they are, and once a good deed has been punished, it's up to me to keep that from happening again.

Personally, being helpful is sometimes just being reliable, chill and doing my job - being the guy others can count on to not have to worry about. Otherwise, it's sometimes recognizing when I need to stay out of my own way and trust others to do their jobs (respecting the chain of command goes for everyone - up, down and sideways).

And sometimes volunteering to do there jobs for them is enabling rather than helping; People will often rise to the challenge of their own responsibilities once it's apparent there are no other choices.

And yeah, I work too hard for my peace of mind to give it away freely, so there's that.

I'm not saying don't be helpful; Just saying do it in the context of healthy personal boundaries.

 

[LBS-bass]

?

Not sure I follow. You've either got a BL or not. If so, let him lead.

A BL who literally knows no one else in town can hardly put a band together, nor will he have connections to put in place the people he needs when he needs a sub. That's what networking is for.

So saying "so-and-so can be reached on FB messenger, so-and-so responds best to texts, etc." is more trouble than reaching out and volunteering yourself to now have to manage that situation?

I'm not managing anything. I'm putting the two of them together by asking if the guy I know is even available to perhaps do that job. If he says yes, then I introduce the two of the via whatever makes sense; in this case it's email.

But it's absolutely no skin off my behind to be useful to someone. I'm really questioning why you want to push back so hard on that. You sound like someone who wants to be called, but doesn't want to pay it forward to help anyone else get called. Which is fine if you're so much in demand that people don't care if you only do things that help yourself, but cooperation isn't a bad thing in my book, and when it's done right it leads to better opportunities.

This thing about "let him LEAD" is just a red herring. He can show us whether or not he's capable of leading well after he's got his band together and had to navigate a few situations where leadership is what's needed. At the moment, he's failing, and that's a good thing to notice, which I am noticing- and pointing out- at the appropriate time.

Nobody's getting in his way here, he's failing all on his own because when it comes to what's actually important (which is not being able to use a telephone) he's not doing it well.

Maybe you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, or assume I'm new on this block and incapable of assessing my own situation? Not interested in any of that.

 

[Pocket Dave]

A BL who literally knows no one else in town can hardly put a band together, nor will he have connections to put in place the people he needs when he needs a sub. That's what networking is for.
I'm not managing anything. I'm putting the two of them together by asking if the guy I know is even available to perhaps do that job. If he says yes, then I introduce the two of the via whatever makes sense; in this case it's email.

But it's absolutely no skin off my behind to be useful to someone. I'm really questioning why you want to push back so hard on that. You sound like someone who wants to be called, but doesn't want to pay it forward to help anyone else get called. Which is fine if you're so much in demand that people don't care if you only do things that help yourself, but cooperation isn't a bad thing in my book, and when it's done right it leads to better opportunities.

This thing about "let him LEAD" is just a red herring. He can show us whether or not he's capable of leading well after he's got his band together and had to navigate a few situations where leadership is what's needed. At the moment, he's failing, and that's a good thing to notice. Nobody's getting in his way here, he's failing all on his own because when it comes to what's actually important (which is not being able to dial a telephone) he's not doing it well.

Maybe you just want to argue for the sake of arguing, or assume I'm new on this block? Not interested in any of that.

You may have noticed, aside from "let him lead" that what I mentioned in my last post was based on my own personal experience. Sorry if you took that as arguing. Was not my intent.

Please disregard - Apparently there's not much in my story that resonates with you. No worries.

 

[LBS-bass]

You may have noticed, aside from "let him lead" that I mentioned only my own experiences in my last post. Sorry if you took that as arguing. Was not my intent.

Please disregard - Obviously there's not much in my own story that resonates with you.

Well there was until you started accusing me of being inexperienced and attempting to get in this guy's way. I fully understand that often good deeds do not go unpunished but that is not a reason to not do the right thing next time.

The takeaway for me is to observe and readjust my expectations when people demonstrate that their judgment on these things is not particularly good. It isn't to decide no one ever gets my help in the future.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Well there was until you started accusing me of being inexperienced and attempting to get in this guy's way. I fully understand that often deeds do not go unpunished but that is not a reason to not do the right thing next time.

The takeaway for me is to observe and readjust my expectations when people demonstrate that their judgment on these things is not particularly good.

Huh? Where did I say anything about you being inexperienced? I mentioned I didn't know you for a reason.

"Attempting to get in this guy's way"? What I actually said was that for me, being helpful is "sometimes recognizing when I need to stay out of my own way and trust others to do their jobs". That wasn't directed at you; It was only my own experience in case it resonated with you. It apparently doesn't. Cool.

 

[LBS-bass]

Huh? Where did I say anything about you being inexperienced? I mentioned I didn't know you for a reason.

"Attempting to get in this guy's way"?

Your entire attitude here has been that I don't have enough sense to know how to let this guy choose his own sidemen. If he knew any sidemen, he'd have left me out of it.

And if I'm not letting him lead by helping him find the players he has no hope of finding on his own, then that clearly means you think I'm getting in his way, or not letting him do his job. Sometimes doing your job involves knowing the right people to ask, for heaven's sake.

This whole thing is silly. I don't know you either. You clearly aren't involved in the situation but clearly want to suggest that I'm handling it inappropriately because I attempted to assist someone who needed assistance and asked for my help.

Fine, if you want to see it that way. I know the situation well enough to be able to use my own judgment in deciding what is appropriate or not.

My rant here isn't about ANY of this, it's about how he doesn't understand social dynamics well enough to handle what happens when someone who wasn't available becomes available, and how that impacts my relationship with people I work with in other bands. Dude would be socially inept no matter who made the initial callouts. Who contacts the sub has no relevance here; the subs are going to know I recommended them.

The only part that has relevance is that they're people I told him he could hire, and it puts me in an awkward position if he un-hires them. And while he has not un-hired anyone, I've had to intervene twice to make sure this doesn't happen. Twice is once too many but apparently people don't learn their lessons. That includes me. I'm not going to do it again.

I don't see anything here that rises to a level where you and I should be fighting about something, yet here we are. Let's not.

 

[Btbp]

My last non-reply post in this thread was a quasi-rant, I realize I actually have a mini rant, this is a reminder for me to post it later when I have time. So I don't forget, it's about CL and FB and responding to ads or people responding to my ads. Two separate cases.

1/2:
About six months ago was to audition for tribute band A via a guitarist I met through CL, good guy, very active in tribute bands B and C plus day job. Met him at one of his gigs, had good mutual rapport, kept in touch.

A while later says no time to start new tribute A, though he was considering me for yet another tribute (D) thing in the future, also asked if I would be interested in tribute B or C (both Fleetwood Mac) which I politely declined as I have zero interest in that music. He and I keep in touch and are on nothing but good terms, and I like this guy.

New to the area and keen to play, ask him for tribute A's drummer contact to pursue tribute A on my own, which he gladly gives with his blessing.

I contact the drummer, seem to be on the same page, we exchange emails, plan LZ tribute audition list and timing.

Weeks go by, I contact him for an update, more talk about auditions, singer lined up falls through. More time passes, I contact again for updates, he finds guitarist, different singer, more discussion about audition songs. Next thing the list goes from a handful to a full set's worth. And songs are now a mix of LZ and some oddly pedestrian Pop Rock, but ok...

I suggest we all collaborate in an email on a few songs for the initial meet, he oddly questions / confirms with me about my commitment (it's been me taking the initiative contacting him each time). We're both older guys so it's not like either of us are inexperienced or flaky about basic band stuff.

More time passes, no group email, more back and forth on the changing set list, which is back to LZ-only and none of my suggestions honored but fine with me as LZ has always been in my wheelhouse.

I follow-up with drummer again on the phone, with me trying to get this first meet to have a sensible list as I already knew 75% of the bigger list and I suggest we all meet in the middle on it. I know from experience that no way we were all going to meet for the first time and play 20-odd Led Zep songs off the cuff.

In subsequent emails and texts, one from me to confirm the date as I had not heard back and the day was coming I am questioned yet again on my 'commitment' to this initiative and the timing. Remember it's me doing the reaching out and date suggestions.

I suggest a group email, he resists, then refers to guitarist as 'my guitarist' and later flatly refuses to put us all in contact. I let it go quietly and I suggest an upcoming Saturday, just glad we finally have a plan to meet set.

Having shrugged off my initial gut to this curious megalomania from ever prior exchange, which as I am summarizing can only partially do it justice, came to the conclusion that some 57-year old's half-assed attempts to micromanage me just wasn't going to happen.

Sheesh, playing music at this point in one's musical career should not have to be this silly and unprofessional.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Your entire attitude here has been that I don't have enough sense to know how to let this guy choose his own sidemen. If he knew any sidemen, he'd have left me out of it.

And if I'm not letting him lead by helping him find the players he has no hope of finding on his own, then that clearly means you think I'm getting in his way, or not letting him do his job. Sometimes doing your job involves knowing the right people to ask, for heaven's sake.

This whole thing is silly. I don't know you either. You clearly aren't involved in the situation but clearly want to suggest that I'm handling it inappropriately because I attempted to assist someone who needed assistance and asked for my help.

Fine, if you want to see it that way. I know the situation well enough to be able to use my own judgment in deciding what is appropriate or not.

My rant here isn't about ANY of this, it's about how he doesn't understand social dynamics well enough to handle what happens when someone who wasn't available becomes available, and how that impacts my relationship with people I work with in other bands. Dude would be socially inept no matter who made the initial callouts. Who contacts the sub has no relevance here; the subs are going to know I recommended them.

The only part that has relevance is that they're people I told him he could hire, and it puts me in an awkward position if he un-hires them. And while he has not un-hired anyone, I've had to intervene twice to make sure this doesn't happen. Twice is once too many but apparently people don't learn their lessons. That includes me. I'm not going to do it again.

I don't see anything here that rises to a level where you and I should be fighting about something, yet here we are. Let's not.

Only trying to share my own experience in case it's helpful.

I don't think I was being clear in my intent. Sorry if I came across badly. I may disagree with you but I accept and respect that you, and anyone else for that matter, will ultimately choose your path.

 

[pepj]

If someone needed me to find a member for a gig I'm on, I could do it. If the band wasnt great...and the reason I'm on the gig is more a favour than wanting to really be there, I'd not offer anyone and would hope the gig collapses, to be perfectly frank, but if it was a good band, I could and would offer someone who would really add to the whole deal.

Getting these people in is a win-win for me.

But I certainly wouldn't do it if the BL was a joker so I can see both sides here.
Sure, I'm wiling to help..with the above caveats but don't mess them about.
If I'm invested, I'm invested...
and for the most part, thats going to be the case, but I have had to sub for bands, in retrospect I wish I hadn't, so for them, no.

 

[LBS-bass]

If someone needed me to find a member for a gig I'm on, I could do it. If the band wasnt great...and the reason I'm on the gig is more a favour than wanting to really be there, I'd not offer anyone and would hope the gig collapses, to be perfectly frank, but if it was a good band, I could and would offer someone who would really add to the whole deal.

Getting these people in is a win-win for me.

But I certainly wouldn't do it if the BL was a joker so I can see both sides here.
Sure, I'm wiling to help..with the above caveats but don't mess them about.
If I'm invested, I'm invested...
and for the most part, thats going to be the case, but I have had to sub for bands, in retrospect I wish I hadn't, so for them, no.

Well, that's the thing. This BL isn't a joker and he's not a jerk, as far as I can tell. The best way to put it I suppose would be to compare this to someone who's on the spectrum. He's nice, he's very affable among friends, he's quite smart in many ways, and he has a fun sense of humor. His band is fun and the way we approach music-making is a ton of fun. He's played as a sideman with some well-known acts. We have some of the top local musicians in the genre. I have zero issues with quality here.

But he's also introverted and his ability to read social cues is a bit underdeveloped. It's telling that, while I say he's new in town, he's been here a year and a half. If he were good at networking he would know the people he needs to know, but he comes up short on this one, and a big part of that is that it's a very hard chair to fill with the right person. Most people in this town would come up short. Even the player in our band who plays with EVERYBODY in town in this genre could not think of a suitable sub after his one recommendation backed out.

I also think that feeding into this is the fact that he's mostly put bands together in much bigger cities where the number of people you might be able to call in on a moment's notice who can do the job is going to be larger. That's not the case where we live, but it does sort of encourage a slightly different mentality about these kinds of things. In NYC you have a roster of players and you contact them until you find the guy who has the night off, and you book that guy. You can't be so casual about it here.

In short, I've been working with him for a while now and I have no personal ill-will toward him beyond the fact that he makes some dumb mistakes sometimes. But his band is solid, his playing is solid, and his intentions appear to be good. His judgment on matters involving people is hazy, I think, and that's a thing to take into consideration the next time I am asked to involve other people. But it's not the end of the world. It's an informative thing that helps me assess what my behavior will be next time he needs this kind of help.

But this time? A lot was at stake. This most recent show was the most important show we have played, a showcase for a prominent organization supporting the genre. We didn't have the luxury of bringing in 3/4 of our band to crash and burn on this. I'm not stepping up to the plate in order to be the hero here, I'm stepping up to the plate in order to save my own butt, because I know the organization will have a big writeup on it later that will go out to their entire membership, and this show needs to be good.

That's how I roll on everything. Everything I do is an opportunity to move forward, if I do it right. And if someone sticks a wrench in that, I'll do everything I can to make sure that wrench gets removed and things get polished up even better than they were before that happened, because it matters to ME.

Others can make their own choices to sit back and watch the show go down in flames, but i don't have the luxury to let my reputation crash and burn in this little town like that. I've spent six years building that up and I'm not letting one show erode what I've worked hard to build.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

I was asking how in the first quote, the guy had a band..
got a bit mixed up there.

Apparently, he does not. As far as I can tell, anyway. So until further notice, he also does not have a bassist.

Someone asked if I am also expected to provide a rehearsal space - knowing this guy, the answer would be a resounding yes. And book all gigs and run social media.

Thing is, he and I did this, years ago. We were in a band where I did essentially everything, and he was the front man. Our very last gig, he stood still on a tile during sound check and just asked me: "The mike doesn't work, now what?"

He's oblivious to the fact that a singer should have more than just a cable and a mike. He'd expect me to provide the PA (again) etc.

Why did I actually respond to his request in the first place??? Geez, I'm an idiot!!!

 

[Egg250]

We were planning to put some promo material together, a couple of videos and it didn't work out so well.

The drummer locked on a hall with a stage. We should have checked this place out beforehand, it was an echo chamber. Supposed to meet the guy at 9 to start setting up. The drummer, apparantly, didn't confirm this with the guy and we wound up waiting until 10 before we could start setting up.

Another bandmate shows up with a quart of liquor, late. Sigh. At least he brought his gear.

Soundcheck was a nightmare (echo chamber, right?) So, we play the first song. The drummer is singing this one. It didn't go off so well, and we played it again. Only the drummer played it differently the second time, doing choruses in different places and a completely different ending. As I recall, we haven't played this song the same way twice, ever. The song doesn't matter, what matters is we can't play a tight song if we don't know when the changes are coming up because he keeps changing it up.

None of the songs went well. We were totally unprepared. I overheard the drummer saying he spent two days getting his snare to sound right. I think he should have spent those two days practicing. He's told me before he practices by listening to the songs. I don't think that is how it is supposed to work.

Discussion with the band leader coming soon.

 

[Micha84]

He's told me before he practices by listening to the songs. I don't think that is how it is supposed to work.

I do actually think that listening is 80% of the work (if you are not technically challenged by the material). However, big part of listening is getting the structure into your head...

 

[Egg250]

I do actually think that listening is 80% of the work (if you are not technically challenged by the material). However, big part of listening is getting the structure into your head...

Sure, you need to hear the song to learn it. The other 20% of learning the song is actually playing it, developing the muscle memory. He struggles with the changes. He plays 4/4 time almost exclusively. Forget a swingbeat. No matter what, he'll jam 4/4 time hitting 1/4 notes on the high hat. You don't show up to band practice ready to learn to play the song. You learn your part on your own and come to band practice (rehearsal) to put all the pieces together and polish it.

 

[pepj]

I listen and play along..just to get the changes under my fingers.
If the song has anything I dont get in the first couple of passes, I'll actually listen to the part properly without playing. More than that and I'm charting it. Do not want charts on everything, thats too much time on songs that might not get called
If I can hear the intervals, I'm good.

The only problem is if the gtr or drums hears 8's and I'm playing something else, but thats my perogative and its not like my part doesnt work.
But that's some players...

 

[LBS-bass]

I do actually think that listening is 80% of the work (if you are not technically challenged by the material). However, big part of listening is getting the structure into your head...

I have something like eight songs to play in rehearsals this week that I haven't played before. I haven't played through any of them more than once. They just don't need to be learned. They do what I expect them to do, when and where I expect them to do it, and the parts are dead easy. It's all about listening in that case. Some things are harder but this week is not like that

 

[Btbp]

I have something like eight songs to play in rehearsals this week that I haven't played before. I haven't played through any of them more than once. They just don't need to be learned. They do what I expect them to do, when and where I expect them to do it, and the parts are dead easy. It's all about listening in that case. Some things are harder but this week is not like that

My issue is rarely the ability to play new music (unless it's something complicated like Prog or Fusion), but the getting of it into my head. Like the parts of the songs can be easy but some Pop Rock there are the changes to memorize.

For that I create playlists and CDs of rehearsal songs and listen to them in the car or on my phone when walking, when I can keep my hands off my instrument. I try to get where I can hum the song and the bass parts, and I often hear things I miss when learning off the bat, because I'm kind of impatient to learn things exactly at first. But I do pick up the groove from the start.

While I do play note-for-note, it takes time, and I admire people who put the time into it at first, my way is less economical.

 

[LBS-bass]

My issue is rarely the ability to play new music (unless it's something complicated like Prog or Fusion), but the getting of it into my head.

Same. Repeated listening is the way to remember, or making a chart with the form written out. I prefer to memorize, and listening is easy.

 

[Pocket Dave]

We were planning to put some promo material together, a couple of videos and it didn't work out so well.

The drummer locked on a hall with a stage. We should have checked this place out beforehand, it was an echo chamber. Supposed to meet the guy at 9 to start setting up. The drummer, apparantly, didn't confirm this with the guy and we wound up waiting until 10 before we could start setting up.

Another bandmate shows up with a quart of liquor, late. Sigh. At least he brought his gear.

Soundcheck was a nightmare (echo chamber, right?) So, we play the first song. The drummer is singing this one. It didn't go off so well, and we played it again. Only the drummer played it differently the second time, doing choruses in different places and a completely different ending. As I recall, we haven't played this song the same way twice, ever. The song doesn't matter, what matters is we can't play a tight song if we don't know when the changes are coming up because he keeps changing it up.

None of the songs went well. We were totally unprepared. I overheard the drummer saying he spent two days getting his snare to sound right. I think he should have spent those two days practicing. He's told me before he practices by listening to the songs. I don't think that is how it is supposed to work.

Discussion with the band leader coming soon.

In my own limited experience, what I found and am still finding is booked gigs are the biggest delineators of reliability and intent. They can be rough at first, but they quickly separate the wheat from the chaff.

Starting about 15 years ago I started booking and accepting no-rehearsal gigs, because either no one had the time or the BL wasn't going to schedule one. I believe this accelerated the process of learning who to count on and who needed to be carried until someone else could take their place.

I've been blessed in that time to get to know a large pool of no-BS musicians who show up prepared, on-time and ready to work without distraction. In fairness, there's also been a sizable subset of these players who, for whatever reason, didn't make the grade and slowly, sometimes quickly, worked their way out of gigs. (A couple of these guys previously showed the same behavior in other cities and have have since moved on to work their way out of gigs in even more places.)

I just hired on with a local BL for 6-11 dates a month paying above-scale with short, early sets - never later than 11:00. He's got access to the same pool of players, and I've watched them change out over time as the ones who couldn't or mostly wouldn't make the grade were weeded out.

Since then, through gigging constantly, his players have stabilized, even up to his most recent bassist who resigned to take another full time gig with a band that's better aligned with his passion.

The first couple gigs I subbed with this BL were tough - I woodshedded my tail off for two weeks straight from 8-10 each night to learn his set. Glad I did because everyone else is part of that pool of reliable local guys; They're prepared and they put on a great show.

They've never rehearsed once.

Based entirely on this experience, from where I sit it sounds like your band's first gig provided you with a delineating moment for your drummer, and possibly the bandmate who brought the quart to the gig (again - entirely my experience: This has never ended well). And make no mistake - Video shoot or not, this was a gig.

Welcome to the journey my friend.

 

[pepj]

I can know the song completely but I'm still all ears on the gig because I dont know how well the other guys think they know it.
I ask for a version but if you dont know or trust the players, there are still a lot to trip you up.