Rant against Berklee

[bucephylus]

Unless something has changed very recently -- like, in the past ~6 months -- that too is completely incorrect. I'm still looped in to both Berklee's and NEC's alumni associations, and I've never seen anything suggesting an alliance between those two institutions...and everything I read from Berklee's alumni magazine and promo materials suggests that it's even more heavily oriented towards commercial/popular music, jazz too to a lesser extent, and just a token involvement in classical [sic] music.

Berklee did recently (meaning in the last ~5+ years?) take over administration of The Boston Conservatory, a much smaller school than NEC, perhaps that's what you're thinking of? But as I understand it there's been very little cross-pollination between the two schools; the arrangement simply allows the Boston Conservatory to remain solvent, while allowing their students to "broaden their horizons" by taking some courses at Berklee.

You certainly may have more info than I. My summary of what I saw was simply a street level view I had while visiting. The Berkleee bookstore is gone from Mass Ave, relocated into a much smaller footprint on Boylston. The content of the bookstore is 95% NEC swag. There are a few Real Books on the shelf; but, the excellent Garisson Fewell Jazz Improv texts etc were nowhere to be seen - though I will admit some of that may have moved online. There simply was negligible Berklee content, primarily NEC.

I saw Zero guitars being schlepped, and only a single apparently orchestral bass along Boylston. As I said, Zero Wurlitzer or Daddy’s Junky or anything even distantly related. There simply was no Pop Music presence. On the streets.

You may be entirely correct that classroom instruction continues. You just wouldn't know it from the street.

 

[Gopherbassist]

Looking at his other stuff... he's just a rage bait content creator and we all fell for it. He's a troll and we fed him.

Internet rule #1- don't feed the trolls.

Well, I didn't fall for it. I didn't even click the link.

You should fall for the Mr. Hands video that I posted though. It's pretty good.

 

[logdrum]

I haven't looked at any of the videos referenced in this thread, I'm just here because I love the idea of a "Rant against Berklee"

I went to Berklee, graduated with a Bachelor of Music degree (class of 1982), and I could probably make my own "Rant Against Berklee" video that would be a brutal character assasination of nearly everyone who taught there and everything that they taught

...but I also highly value a lot of stuff that I did learn there, and if I had to do it all over again I probably wouldn't change a thing...except my attitude.

Yeah, some folks just aren't built for structure. And some folks don't recognize the value of structure until it's too late. I kinda pride myself on eventually recognizing the value of a structured music eductation, and so, despite my mixed feelings about my Berklee experience, 12 years after graduating I went back to school, got my Masters Degree at the New England Conservatory of Music (class of 1995).

Both of those degrees are sitting in a file cabinet drawer somewhere around here...

Hey Bob -- you make upright basses correct?

I have a couple close friends that graduated from Berklee. One thing I know is that they are very good at hustling gigs, grants and most of them can teach. My good lets call him Bruce invited me to play at his 4th year recital piece along with a 12 piece of Berklee guys. They can all play very well. This was in 89 or was it 90?. He is more of an Irish Celtic musician and fiddler by trade. Now a very successful businessman in the Pacific Northwest

I know an NEC grad as well. Still lives in Boston and quite a busy jazz drummer and teaches privately and maybe subs at NEC still

 

[logdrum]

I like a couple Marbin videos but some or maybe a majority of it he is too full of himself. Yeah really a middle of the road guitar player and the band is okay but even here in NM there are a few bands that play and compose similar material. I just played with these sub 20 kids at the New Mexico Avant Jazz workshop show. Interesting that the 4 of them decided to go to different music schools Berklee and North Texas and Cal Arts. Their material has some of what Marbin do, but they are younger and much much humbler.

 

[matthewbrown]

I shared the stand with many Berklee teachers years ago. I've been friends with a number of Berklee instructors over the years, dating back to when I was busy on the Boston scene in the 80s and early 90s.They've remarked on a number of occasions what a small percentage of students was able to benefit from their instruction, for the same reason that my other college professor friends said their (non-music) students didn't benefit: They didn't put in enough time or make enough effort. OTOH, I know a drummer who literally just hung around Berklee sitting in with whoever he could, studied privately with the best, and he ended up on a tour with a major production, and then on two recordings with a well-known Boston-based band. He now teaches at the college level.

Berklee has changed a lot since the 80s and 90s. It has more programs, it's admissions policy is more competitive and its retention and graduation rates have reason markedly. But I think this truth applies to any music performance degree; it was written on the bathroom walls at the University of Miami (where I studied music):

(To the tune of Ole Susannah):
I come from old New Jersey with my guitar on my knee;
I came to learn to play some jazz, strumming flat nines and thirteens.
Oh, Professor! Teach me how to play!
Or I'm going back to Jersey with a worthless jazz degree.

 

[bass player 53]

I think his name is Dani Rabin from the band Martin. Yes, he went to Berklee. His main point is why in would someone drop 100's of thousands of dollars to get a music degree in this day of age.

Someone tell me if I’m completely wrong here, but if you want a career in a professional symphony or opera orchestra, conservatory training is required, in credentials and experience.
You won’t even get called to audition without it. Also, with the cutthroat competition for university teaching jobs, most of which require a PhD, you will spend a lot of time and money just to have the ‘privilege’ of completing.

 

[wompwomp]

This just in: Most any college dergree is EXPENSIVE. And college is not for everyone. Including THAT guy.

Most self-trained musicians who walk into a strong academic music program usually have JUST this reaction to what seems like the stuffed shirts who ain't happenin' like him, and OMG INSIST he learns standard notation, theory, and the seemingly endless scores and exercises that have NOTHING to do with the REAL music he loves. This often emotional reaction, like most, can cloud your good sense. Or, some guys realize it's just NOT for them, and that's fine.

Smart people realize they are being handed the keys to the kingdom IF learning all these things to augment their natural talent and taste is a plus/plus game.

And some guys will always rebel against this orthodoxy, and some will do well at their thing, and some won't.

But I'd dare say that graduates from Berklee, North Texas, Belmont, Julliard, etc., have far more tools in their toolbox IF that's something they want to see through. You have to decide if it's worth it to you, like most big decisions in your life.

afaik Dani Rabin graduated from Berklee and makes a living playing music.

 

[wompwomp]

There may be scholarship funds available to students who ace some kind of audition, but nobody goes for free, and no student funds are subsidizing other student's tuition.

this seems doubtful. the currency of a school is it's best/most high profile students, not the instructors.

 

[jeffmaccora]

Someone tell me if I’m completely wrong here, but if you want a career in a professional symphony or opera orchestra, conservatory training is required, in credentials and experience.
You won’t even get called to audition without it. Also, with the cutthroat competition for university teaching jobs, most of which require a PhD, you will spend a lot of time and money just to have the ‘privilege’ of completing.

I understand your point, and I think Dani would probably agree with you. I've heard him say that if your goal is to become a teacher or win an orchestra position, then going to school makes sense—although even then, Berklee may be overpriced in today's market at around $80,000 per year. Berklee also isn't really known for specializing in classical performance or orchestral training.

In most of his videos, though, he's talking to people whose primary goal is simply to learn how to play guitar professionally or at a high level. For that, his argument is that you don't need to attend a music school to become a great player—especially with all the tools available today online.

 

[bass player 53]

I understand your point, and I think Dani would probably agree with you. I've heard him say that if your goal is to become a teacher or win an orchestra position, then going to school makes sense—although even then, Berklee may be overpriced in today's market at around $80,000 per year. Berklee also isn't really known for specializing in classical performance or orchestral training.

In most of his videos, though, he's talking to people whose primary goal is simply to learn how to play guitar professionally or at a high level. For that, his argument is that you don't need to attend a music school to become a great player—especially with all the tools available today online.

Yes, I understand. I will say that an awful lot of people don’t know what they don’t know. There is so much instructional overload nowadays, I think it’s difficult to ‘cut to the chase’; a good university program or conservatory will properly and efficiently show you what you really need to make a career in ‘popular’ music, ie jazz, pop, etc. If you look at the credentials of the vast majority of young jazz musicians today, you see a lot of BA and MA degrees from well known schools: Berklee, Manhattan, New England, Miami, the pro school out in LA, etc.
I read so many stories here on TB of people that ask for basic help, or stumble around for years trying to collect useful and even essential information. These programs give that to you. Life is short- what is your time and frustration worth?

 

[Docduval]

Is that the same Barklee that gives lessons in ai music generation with stolen ai voices of real people? The same Berkelee that’s led by a guy who is affiliated with the biggest ai music generator?

 

[bass player 53]

Is that the same Barkley that gives lessons in ai music generation with stolen ai voices of real people? The same Berkeley that’s led by a guy who is affiliated with the biggest ai music generator?

It’s spelled Berklee. The other one is a well respected and very competitive to get into University in California.

 

[Docduval]

It’s spelled Berklee. The other one is a well respected and very competitive to get into University in California.

Thank you for correcting my spelling.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I wouldn't go into debt to go to Berklee but there are plenty of families with the means to pay for without much thought. (Not getting political, just stating fact.) If I were in that position and wanted to pursue a career in music, but not classical or classical-adjacent, I'd do Berklee. A lot of opportunities and contacts to be made on top of the skills learned in class.

 

[bass player 53]

Thank you for correcting my spelling.

You welcome.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Someone tell me if I’m completely wrong here, but if you want a career in a professional symphony or opera orchestra, conservatory training is required, in credentials and experience.
You won’t even get called to audition without it. Also, with the cutthroat competition for university teaching jobs, most of which require a PhD, you will spend a lot of time and money just to have the ‘privilege’ of completing.

True. The music department at the college from which I retired was populated with PhDs and a few masters who were in the process of completing their doctorates. Competition for a day gig in music, with benefits, and with a schedule that accommodates gigs at night and on weekends, is fierce in Southern Califorina.

 

[coreyfyfe]

You certainly may have more info than I. My summary of what I saw was simply a street level view I had while visiting. The Berkleee bookstore is gone from Mass Ave, relocated into a much smaller footprint on Boylston. The content of the bookstore is 95% NEC swag. There are a few Real Books on the shelf; but, the excellent Garisson Fewell Jazz Improv texts etc were nowhere to be seen - though I will admit some of that may have moved online. There simply was negligible Berklee content, primarily NEC.

I saw Zero guitars being schlepped, and only a single apparently orchestral bass along Boylston. As I said, Zero Wurlitzer or Daddy’s Junky or anything even distantly related. There simply was no Pop Music presence. On the streets.

You may be entirely correct that classroom instruction continues. You just wouldn't know it from the street.

Wurlitzer closed a little over 20 years ago, I think I went one or twice my freshman year of college before the building was bought (by Berklee) and demolished. The new studios which I believe are in the basement of the building which took the place of wurlitzer are amazing though.

Daddy's closed about 15 years ago and Guitar center moved from Comm ave to two locations, one in the former Daddy's on Mass ave and one on Boylston near fenway. I think they've since closed the mass ave location as well.

 

[BassBrass]

FWIW, I just visited the Berklee area for the first time in perhaps two decades. The Berklee I knew seems to have morphed into something pretty different. They have “partnered” with The New England Conservatory; but, the vibe is that NEC pretty much runs the show, and there is some Jazz education curriculum retained.

No doubt, the Jazz education is pretty top notch.

But, the whole greater pop music culture there, within which the Jazz curriculum formed a backbone, seemed essentially gone. It seemed that what you now have is a Classical Music School with a side Jazz curriculum.

The surrounding infrastructure of guitar shops etc has vanished entirely. There is a GC over near the baseball stadiium; and probably the weakest GC I’ve been to ever. The pop music part of the culture is gone. Nada.

By Berklee area do you mean the area around the corner of Mass Av and Boyleston, aka Auditorium Station stop on the T ?? NEC is naturally dominant being "superior" and last I heard consisted of classical/jazz/3rd stream departments. If you can't find the pop music at Berklee it's been moved to a different annex (metaphorically speaking), but it's there. What's essentially gone is low rent/gas prices allowing for a long musical development. There are guitar shops in Boston, btw, but like everywhere some things have moved on line. The GC across the fens has cool stuff sometimes when people trade in great instruments for Fenders they were shamed into getting at Berklee.

 

[bass player 53]

Yes, I understand. I will say that an awful lot of people don’t know what they don’t know. There is so much instructional overload nowadays, I think it’s difficult to ‘cut to the chase’; a good university program or conservatory will properly and efficiently show you what you really need to make a career in ‘popular’ music, ie jazz, pop, etc. If you look at the credentials of the vast majority of young jazz musicians today, you see a lot of BA and MA degrees from well known schools: Berklee, Manhattan, New England, Miami, the pro school out in LA, etc.
I read so many stories here on TB of people that ask for basic help, or stumble around for years trying to collect useful and even essential information. These programs give that to you. Life is short- what is your time and frustration worth?

I will make one further statement, FWIW, related to this conversation. There are a lot of pod casts out there. These are done by many well meaning people. A lot of listeners, are, I think making a big mistake thinking that these broadcasts are a substitute for traditional, formal education (high school, college). Watching YouTube videos on traditional education subjects and music instruction also fall in this realm. The problem here is that you are getting one viewpoint, even if by an expert, on a small part of a broader subject, and leaving no mechanism for discussion or, more importantly, feedback. There is a very well established science of how we learn, how we practice, and how we measure progress. I would like to believe that schools such as Berklee provide this. Is it worth the cost? I think we circle back to ‘it depends.’

 

[Paul New]

Jeff Berlin is on a constant anti-Berklee rant too. Are there still people here who know who Jeff Berlin is?