re doing band PA - seeking advice/guidance

[pfschim]

I am working regularly in 2 bands, soon to be 3. All of the bands are original projects
1. Alt/Country/Roots rock. 6 piece Guit, Acoustic Guit, Bass, Drums, Pedal Steel, Violin with 4 vocalists
2 World Music/Jazzy/eclectic. Single mic for audience chatter and such
3. 4 piece Blues Rock/power trio + singer. Guit/Bass/Drums/Vocalist with 3 vocal mics.

All of these bands share a number of players in common, and some gear in common. We use our own PA gear about 1/2 the time for small to medium gigs (50 - 200 people). Larger gigs almost always provide some form of FOH that we either like, or just deal with. None of the bands is ear bleedingly loud, and there is a focus on vocal quality.

We currently have 5 Mackie Thump15 mains/monitors and an older Mackie ProFX8 board. We run 3 or 4 vocal mics (depending on the band) and no instruments currently go in the PA (other than the singers acoustic in the Alt/Country band). We use 2 of the Thump15's for mains, and the other three are used as monitor wedges. The individual players amps cover the venue for each instrument.

What I'd like to do is replace the Mackie ProFX8 board (4 mic pre's) with a Mackie DL806 (8 pre's and 3 aux outs) or possibly a DL1608 (16 pre's and 4 aux out). I would also like to add a sub to the current mix of Thump15's we have. We have several goals:
- mic or DI all instruments and some drums (kick/snare?)
- reduce overall stage volume, use smaller individual rigs, and still be able to project a good mix into venues
- reduce reliance on individual players rigs for covering venues
- gain a central point of control for getting and keeping good stage mixes

We have been happy with the Thump15 for mains, and monitors (we did not plan it this way, we just collectively ended up with them). We would be open to doubling up the Thump15's for mains, and going with smaller monitors.

So, my questions:

1. I am looking for input on whether or not 5 Mackie Thump15's and a sub (Mackie Thump18S ??) would be a reasonable starting point. We're happy with the Mackie stuff, but If you all think there is a better way to go, please offer suggestions.

2. What is the best way to get bass and kick/snare in the mix (at least a little) w/o killing the vocal quality ? Is there some kind of crossover or way to keep the bass and drums out of the way of the vocals ?

 

[PAguy]

I use and aux send on my DL1608 to feed our subs. I use the LPF and parametric EQ on that aux out to dial in the low end. I just run the kick and floor tom to the sub. Works for me in the small clubs I play.

 

[s0c9]

Question(s)?
You say you want to reduce overalls stage volume? Best way to do that is put everything DI into the PA and go IEM.
Which begs..Are you planning on going IEM in the future? If so, the Mackie will not provide enough mixes.

 

[pfschim]

I use and aux send on my DL1608 to feed our subs. I use the LPF and parametric EQ on that aux out to dial in the low end. I just run the kick and floor tom to the sub. Works for me in the small clubs I play.

cool, great tip. and are you running bass in the PA at all ? If so, do you get collision with vocals ?
We tried doubling up the Mains (2xThump15's for L and R) and adding a borrowed sub a few times for outdoor gigs where we had to provide PA. We did not use your approach of using LPF on an AUX out to feed the sub, and with even a small amount of bass in the PA, we felt it hurt the vocal quality.

 

[pfschim]

Question(s)?
You say you want to reduce overalls stage volume? Best way to do that is put everything DI into the PA and go IEM.
Which begs..Are you planning on going IEM in the future? If so, the Mackie will not provide enough mixes.

I don't know about IEM's. We have had them on a few larger festival stages, provided by the sound company, and did not take to them very well.
At the level of complexity we are at (not high), I'm thinking we would not want IEM's, or perhaps just for the lead vocalist. What is required to do IEM, more aux outs ?

 

[Bufalo]

Yeah, ideally (meaning not in the world of men) each guy would have his own stereo in-ear mix, so you'd need two aux outputs for each performer. Not likely in most cases. Back here in the land of reality, the six aux outputs from a DL1608 are plenty for sending several different mixes to monitor wedges, or to mono IEMs. I've used the DL for about a year now, and it's been a revelation. Ten thumbs up, would recommend to any band running its own sound system.

If you add a subwoofer to your system, you should be able to filter out some of the lowest frequencies from your thump 15s. That will help maintain clarity when more instruments are in your mix.

 

[4Mal]

I'm a fan of high passing the mics and using an Aux to feed the sub but... You need a crossover in the signal chain somewhere. The Thumps don't have it built in... Or you need a matched set of tops and bottoms where the lpf is in the sub and hpf in the top. See the QSC K series...

If a K series or similar setup isn't in the cards.
. Leave All channels panned center
. Put the stuff you want into an AUX (bass, kick,me drums, keys, synths) As well as in the main mix
. Run the AUX to channel A / 1 of a decent stereo cross over set it to drive the subs.
. Run one side of the main, or a mono out to the other channel.
. Set both sides of the cross over to the same frequency point. 100 to 120 hz would be in the ballpark.
. Send the channel A/1 low to the sub. Channel B/2 side to the tops.

Personally I found a set of thump 12's I owned to be problematic. I lost 2 of 3 to a power glitch. The thumps were on a circuit with some sm-450's all being used as monitors or out fills on a festival stage. None of the 450's too a hit... I got 'em fixed under warranty - though I had to ship them to New Jersey to do that. CL'ed them off with the appropriate disclaimer.

Mackie 806 is a great little board. It's what I mix my band with. We use Presonus 16.4.2's for sound company work. Kinda wish I had bought the 1608 as I would use it for small sound company shows where I am not also recording.

Assuming a properly configured SUB and TOP system, properly mixed bass and drums in the PA should not muddy the vocals. If it is, then 1 of the conditions isn't being met...

I would have to say that IEM's are not the answer for everyone. The pro level stuff is pretty damned expensive and many of the folk I see using them take them out when they aren't on a mic. I expect they can be wonderful but I suspect it ain't as easy as some folks seem to think... I personally like a nice fat 12 and horn staring me in the face but that is just me...

 

[pfschim]

thanks for the replies so far. some good ideas to consider.
4Mal, I'm going to have to give your post a serious re-read. I am comfortable with basic PA set-ups like the one we have now, but am not any kind of audio master engineer.
I kind of wondered about adding a crossover and LPF/HPF capabilities, but I have did not have any idea how that should be done. It would be great to be able to have a qualified and experienced sound guy on hand, but other than the bigger venues and festival stages where the sound/light/stage company provides that, we will have to go with running sound from the stage.

As far as the Mackie Thump15's go, we basically collected them over time from various members joining the bands, it was not a conscious decision. OTHO, we have not had any reason to dislike them at all. I know there are probably better mains/monitors (EV, QSC K's etc), but the Mackie's are what we have today, so we'll probably stick with them for the time being.

 

[modulusman]

Anybody who can read a spec sheet would never buy the older thumps in the first place. They might work OK for a monitor but they would not be loud enough for a FOH speaker. At a 113db long term SPL they are pretty much worthless for a loud band.

 

[PAguy]

cool, great tip. and are you running bass in the PA at all ? If so, do you get collision with vocals ?
We tried doubling up the Mains (2xThump15's for L and R) and adding a borrowed sub a few times for outdoor gigs where we had to provide PA. We did not use your approach of using LPF on an AUX out to feed the sub, and with even a small amount of bass in the PA, we felt it hurt the vocal quality.

cool, great tip. and are you running bass in the PA at all ? If so, do you get collision with vocals ?
We tried doubling up the Mains (2xThump15's for L and R) and adding a borrowed sub a few times for outdoor gigs where we had to provide PA. We did not use your approach of using LPF on an AUX out to feed the sub, and with even a small amount of bass in the PA, we felt it hurt the vocal quality.

I don't use a crossover. There's nothing left to cross over with the HPF and parametric. I'm set up to run my bass through the subs, there's just no need to in most club situations. BTW, I am using 1st gen JBL eons-2 tops and 2 subs. Those subs are not great by any means, but I can get some thump for the kick drum. Vocals are always very clear. I can't see why you would have problems with vocals unless your speakers can't handle the outside gigs.

 

[pfschim]

Anybody who can read a spec sheet would never buy the older thumps in the first place. They might work OK for a monitor but they would not be loud enough for a FOH speaker. At a 113db long term SPL they are pretty much worthless for a loud band.

as I mentioned, we more or less just "accumulated" the Thump15's. It wasn't a conscious decision to go out and buy 5 of them. As it is, none of the bands are ear-bleed loud and they seem to work ok for our needs as they stand today. And, if I do unload some of the low end to a sub (or 2), they may even work better. We have had the chance to use some newer EV mains that were pretty good, but again, I am not really trying to replace our current mains/monitors (Thump15's) right now.

I could start from scratch and buy newer/better mains and monitors, but my current goal is to just to improve our board and augment the mains with at least one sub without going on a crazy spending spree.

thanks for all the input so far. mostly helpful so far.

 

[PAguy]

as I mentioned, we more or less just "accumulated" the Thump15's. It wasn't a conscious decision to go out and buy 5 of them. As it is, none of the bands are ear-bleed loud and they seem to work ok for our needs as they stand today. And, if I do unload some of the low end to a sub (or 2), they may even work better. We have had the chance to use some newer EV mains that were pretty good, but again, I am not really trying to replace our current mains/monitors (Thump15's) right now.

I could start from scratch and buy newer/better mains and monitors, but my current goal is to just to improve our board and augment the mains with at least one sub without going on a crazy spending spree.

thanks for all the input so far. mostly helpful so far.

Can't fault the DL1608 as far as sound quality. It's a great board.