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Reading music and elitism

#221
Low_Ryder said:
I felt that way about 5,000 posts ago. Now I kinda feel like I never want to read another post again. Just kidding! Well, mostly just kidding:hmm:

Is anyone here on TB (or anyone you know) really against learning SN? I mean, really AGAINST it? As a way of life? On philosophical grounds? Not just making a choice for themselves, but saying that the very idea of learning SN is bad for anyone and everyone?

I think I will be surprised if ANYONE feels this way.
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From what I can tell no one is on this thread. The rant came from some unattributed random comments in Bass Player. People read Bass Player? According to this thread only hobbyists and enthusiasts. Yet the rant came from a pro.

A few are saying you can play bass without learning to read. This is true. From what I can tell people have different ideas about what reading is.

To get the reading gigs in one take like from the Marcus Miller quote you would need to be able to sight read standard notation perfectly. Another post says it's easier to say Ab than 4th fret. What does this have to do with reading?

I could read music from 6th to 9th grade in school band playing trombone. Then I was kicked out (technically asked not to sign up again) because I was a cut up. Six years later I took up bass and guitar. Mainly because it was fun to do when you're stoned. I have never used a tab.

I have since learned the fretboard and some theory. I can read a chord chart and make lines from chord tones and scales. Because of this it's easy to pick up rock, blues, swing, pop, and some jazz tunes.

I just started playing with wedding band that's made up of other guys with music degrees. They gave me a list of songs. Pop, rock, jazz, funk. No sheet music. I looked at what they were using. Chord charts. I got the gig instead of some jazz guys because, according to the band leader, I'm versatile, easy to get along with, and can provide lead and backing vocals.

In church I use chord charts, lead sheets with chords and sheet music with chords. In choir I can follow the notes for relative pitch but I don't know what notes I'm singing.

So am I a reader? I would say no.

I know I won't get the recording session gig. I won't get the sub gig for the ASO either. I'm OK with that. I'm not trying to get them. If you are you should learn to read. And by that I mean sight read.

Why do people who read get so upset because their competitors don't? Some unknown punk says you're an elitist. Big deal.
 
#222
Another easy option for those who want to learn: Pick up this book.

http://www.amazon.ca/Everything-Reading-Music-Book-Understanding/dp/1593373244

I bought "the Everything Music Theory book" from the same author, and I finally understood things that I couldn't understand through music lessons. Folks with a music degree sometimes sound like they "speak in tongues" for us mere mortals, but this guy explains it in plain English.
 
#223
nutdog said:
Why do people who read get so upset because their competitors don't? Some punk you don't know says you're an elitist. Big deal.
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People are free to say whatever they want, and I'm free to point out how dumb it is.

:D

Also, my competitors read. People who don't read are not even in contention for most of the gigs I get. And they may be happy with that and that's cool. But I take it personally when some snotnose know-nothing automatically assumes the reason I can read is because my parents sent me to Berklee at $30,000 a year, and that's something we don't want some casual reader who would like some music education to believe. No, Mr. Mommy And Daddy, I worked my ass off to learn it for a penny or two on the dollar compared to a Berklee education.

And rather than get pissed off that readers encourage others to learn it, they ought to be darn glad that we're not bogarting what we know in an effort to keep them out of contention for the gigs we get.

Joe Nerve, I think that's really cool you're going to pursue it again. However, while it shouldn't have to cost you a fortune to learn it, it does help if you have someone explaining the concepts to you. So if you haven't already, I might look into taking some music reading lessons, at least to get you started. As a teacher yourself, I'm sure you can relate. Just don't get Frank77's teacher ;)
 
#224
JimmyM said:
People are free to say whatever they want, and I'm free to point out how dumb it is.

:D
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Well I hope you feel better now.:)

Seriously though, how many times does someone drop some sheet music in front of you and pay you to play the line as written?

Not being argumentative. I realize it's beneficial. I'm genuinely curious.
 
#225
JimmyM said:
Joe Nerve, I think that's really cool you're going to pursue it again. However, while it shouldn't have to cost you a fortune to learn it, it does help if you have someone explaining the concepts to you. So if you haven't already, I might look into taking some music reading lessons, at least to get you started. As a teacher yourself, I'm sure you can relate. Just don't get Frank77's teacher ;)
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Giving it one last go by myself. That sight reading site someone posted looks like it's going to be really helpful. If by July I haven't progressed considerably, I'll throw the towel in and get myself some lessons again. I think I got spoiled by going to pat pfiefer (bass for dummies author) a little over a decade ago. Took 3 or 4 lessons with him, thought he was awesome, but couldn't really afford it and feel I got spoiled. :) I'm sure there are other teachers who can handle me like he did, but I'm reluctant to take the $50 or more gamble to see if they're worth it. :/ Best thing about taking lessons from Pat was he was calling me on an almost monthly basis (even after I stopped the lessons) with gig opportunities. That may actually make it worth my while to give it a go with him again. Lessons could wind up paying for themselves. Think he's asking like $140 a lesson now though. That's pretty steep. Especially if I go weekly. Ahh... I'm giving myself till July.
 
#227
nutdog said:
Well I hope you feel better now.:)

Seriously though, how many times does someone drop some sheet music in front of you and pay you to play the line as written?

Not being argumentative. I realize it's beneficial. I'm genuinely curious.
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Depending on the year, anywhere from 50 to 100 times. Most of my work is in musical theatre, and there's no room for hot-dogging with the musical directors I work for.

I've sat on the sidelines and watched this thread develop, but I'd like to thank Jimmy for starting it, and everyone else for their responses. It's been fascinating.

I grew up with 2 music teachers for parents, so it was pretty obvious when I started playing the bass that I would learn to read the bass clef. I already read treble clef because I was playing flute, sax and clarinet. My parents also taught me not to judge people who didn't read music - some of our finest folk performers, blues artists, and rockers can't read the first note, but that doesn't marginalize their abilities and the music they created.

For me, it was a constant battle in bands with folks who didn't read - they spent hours listening to first 45's, then tapes, then CD's trying to hammer out the parts they were playing. I did that also, rather than opening up the sheet music and playing it the first time the way it was written. I bent over backwards to avoid any appearance of seeming aloof or elite. It's only in the last few years, as I approach the ripe old age of 60 that I've quit caring what these folks think. I have a skill I bring to the table - take it or leave it. I'm currently involved in a Stax/Volt/Motown project in which I'm the only reader. The other guys love it because they can get their questions answered quickly about an odd chord change or something they just can't pick out by ear. I'm not going to apologize to anyone for it.

For the guys who don't read and don't want to learn - that's fine with me. I'm not questioning your musical abilities, and some of you are kick-@$$ players that I enjoy working with. Just please don't think of me as an elitist because I have a skill you don't - I'm sure you all have plenty of skills I don't, and you make them work for you.

Just my rambling $.02 - thanks for listening.

Blooz :bassist:
 
#228
I agree the "elitist" comment was not very thoughtful.

I also think BP and other guitar/bass mags (and publishers in general) should not abandon the use of TAB in some of their offerings.

And I am a sight reader who has 15-20 weekly bass and guitar students, the majority of whom are held to an expectation of reading in standard notation.
 
#229
nutdog said:
Well I hope you feel better now.:)

Seriously though, how many times does someone drop some sheet music in front of you and pay you to play the line as written?

Not being argumentative. I realize it's beneficial. I'm genuinely curious.
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3-4 times a month. My band also performs by itself doing covers, and we don't read sheet music on gigs where it's just us. Our horn players have sheet music because a couple of them rotate in and out, but the rhythm section never reads.

But when we back an act, we always read unless we have their show memorized already. And that happens on the average 3-4 times a month. The type of music we get varies...sometimes it's chord sheets, sometimes it's notation and we read the ink...but it happens regularlyn. And in my sub work, almost all of it involves reading to a degree, though I do still get calls from my old rock and roll buddies who need a sub at a local bar, and that doesn't involve reading. Also pays way less than the other stuff ;)
 
#230
Joe Nerve said:
Giving it one last go by myself. That sight reading site someone posted looks like it's going to be really helpful. If by July I haven't progressed considerably, I'll throw the towel in and get myself some lessons again. I think I got spoiled by going to pat pfiefer (bass for dummies author) a little over a decade ago. Took 3 or 4 lessons with him, thought he was awesome, but couldn't really afford it and feel I got spoiled. :) I'm sure there are other teachers who can handle me like he did, but I'm reluctant to take the $50 or more gamble to see if they're worth it. :/ Best thing about taking lessons from Pat was he was calling me on an almost monthly basis (even after I stopped the lessons) with gig opportunities. That may actually make it worth my while to give it a go with him again. Lessons could wind up paying for themselves. Think he's asking like $140 a lesson now though. That's pretty steep. Especially if I go weekly. Ahh... I'm giving myself till July.
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Can't blame you there.
 
#231
BloozBass said:
I'm currently involved in a Stax/Volt/Motown project in which I'm the only reader. The other guys love it because they can get their questions answered quickly about an odd chord change or something they just can't pick out by ear.
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Same thing here. The guys like the fact that I can give them answers to questions they might have without generally having to spend large amounts of time listening to the music. They can solo circles around me all day and night, but I can keep them locked on target with solid rhythm and accurate bass lines. But I can also see and hear when they want to do something which is different from the printed chart and have no trouble (most of the time) going with them. It's not set in stone, but it helps to be solid.

We all bring something to the game, and I will not play dumb for anyone.
 
#232
carl h. said:
We all bring something to the game, and I will not play dumb for anyone.
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Me neither. I did that once in a band I was in when I was 16, a bunch of guys 6 or 7 years older than me who were OK but not especially strong musicians and definitely weren't schooled. When they found out I was holding back because they were older and I didn't want to come off like a snotnose know it all, they got mad at me and told me never to hold back on them again. So I never did it again.
 
#234
Joe Nerve: I agree-$140 an hour is pretty rowdy unless you're studying with Anthony Jackson. Have you checked out the Bassist's Collective? Great teachers and players who may be more affordable. It's affiliated with the Drummers Collective.
I use reading on gigs roughly 50% of the time. If you count teaching and Jazz gigs where reading gave me the knowledge base to function it jumps up to 90%.
I don't think anyone's being dogged for not reading (certainly not by me). I did get my nose out of joint when someone seemed to insinuate readers were smug in defense of their "bland" music careers (mine has included touring with Jerry Reed and Dickey Betts
as well as TV gigs with Chet Atkins and MTV Hair Metal Bands so I don't feel it's bland at all).
I don't feel superior, I just feel like I want to encourage others to learn. A "Street" player with knowledge is the best of both worlds-think Will Lee.
 
#236
nutdog said:
Well if just one young rocker learns to read because of this thread you've done a noble thing. :bassist:
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Well now I'm wondering if I should have said anything. Really, who needs this class of kids coming up and taking my gigs away? Hard enough to get good gigs as it is.

Forget I said anything, everyone. Move along now. Nothing to see here.

:hiding:
 
#237
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I believe I could teach a capable student who already had some background on the instrument the key points about reading in 2 or maybe 3 one hour lessons. The rest would be down to them practising as much as they could, with suitable material at each stage of development.

Obviously, there would be some variation depending on the student and their prior knowledge. The point is that it's really not difficult to learn how to read - at bottom, it's a pretty straightforward process. The difference between someone who's had the sort of basic instruction I'm talking about and a fluent sight reader is almost all down to practice, rather than any extended study of higher level concepts.

I think the reason some folks are reluctant to learn to read is maybe that they perceive it as too difficult, or more "theoretical" than it actually is. Music theory can and does get complex, and takes a lot of study to master. But music reading doesn't take anything like so much, and has very little in the way of "theoretical" content. It's an almost entirely practical skill.
 
#238
bassybill said:
I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that I believe I could teach a capable student who already had some background on the instrument the key points about reading in 2 or maybe 3 one hour lessons. The rest would be down to them practising as much as they could, with suitable material at each stage of development.

Obviously, there would be some variation depending on the student and their prior knowledge. The point is that it's really not difficult to learn how to read - at bottom, it's a pretty straightforward process. The difference between someone who's had the sort of basic instruction I'm talking about and a fluent sight reader is almost all down to practice, rather than any extended study of higher level concepts.

I think the reason some folks are reluctant to learn to read is maybe that they perceive it as too difficult, or more "theoretical" than it actually is. Music theory can and does get complex, and takes a lot of study to master. But music reading doesn't take anything like so much, and has very little in the way of "theoretical" content. It's an almost entirely practical skill.
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+1, spot on

I don't have a music degree. The only formal music education I've had was around six months of piano. By then I had already done a lot of performing and recording, so I had the intuitive ear thing down pretty good. After six months of piano, I told my teacher, "you know what, I think I've got it from here" and dropped off her schedule. I continued to read, practice, and apply it to other instruments. It is a practical skill, and a basic understanding of sight reading in standard notation is not that difficult.

It's what you do with it that defines how difficult or complex it becomes.

My students age 16 and younger are required to learn the basics of formal music, standard notation. I encourage them all, but when a busy adult says, "I just want to play as quickly as possible, I'm too busy for the academics, teach me songs," and I need the paycheck, what can I do? I give them what they want. Interestingly, sooner or later, it never fails that we find ourselves discussing formal music principles. :)
 
#239
JimmyM said:
I saw a comment in the new BP today that just angered the living crap out of me. They asked a poll question: "Should we do away with TAB in our transcriptions?" To which one halfwit replied:

"Losing the TAB would make the magazine way too elitist."

Another joker replied:

"Not all of us had mommies and daddies who could pay for music classes."

Really? You really think it's about money and elitism? Yeah, you're right...I learned out of a book that cost $5 in addition to joining the middle school band. My wife, who had no previous musical skills, wanted to learn the piano a few years ago. I bought her a piano for Christmas and a $15 piano method book. She worked through the book herself and taught herself how to read. Real big money there, eh?

So stop with this nonsense about reading music being elitist. I'm sick of it, and it's just a lame excuse for not wanting to put in the work. You never see anyone who can read music talking about how much it costs or how elite they are, do you? Nope, only the whiners who resent people for working for it.

That's what it boils down to...not wanting to put in the work. It ain't brain surgery, folks.
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I don't know how this could go on for 12 pages. Enough said.
 
#240
Bill, I'd say you were spot on. It just plain isn't that difficult to grasp. To master, like anything, it takes a lifetime, and we're all still working on it as we go no matter who we are. But if my wife, who didn't care about playing music before, could figure out the basics in a few days, any of you can. Granted, she's a real smart cookie and is a nurse manager at a local hospital, but you all don't seem so dumb to me. OK, maybe one or two of you who hang out in Off-topic, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here ;)
 

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