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Reading music and elitism

#201
I read music, but I can use tab, too. Most professional situations require that I read, but if somebody is paying me to play and hands me tab, I will still take the money!

For me it is sort of like the fingers vs. pick argument. I can do both, so I can deal with any situation. If you are able to survive by just playing tab and you're happy with that, then good for you.

I would never look down on somebody just because they can't read. If you are able to do what you like and other people are happy with what you do, who cares?
 
#202
JimmyM said:
Honestly, unless it's a specific melody, I can't imagine giving a pedal steel player anything more than a chord sheet or a Nashville number sheet and saying, "Go to town."
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That's the general practice. Once in a while, you get the control freak who says things like, "nonono-the solo goes like this", and hands you a standard-notation chart. So, you play the notes as written until he figures out that he's on the wrong track and leaves you alone to play and get a yea or nay. A friend of mine played a theatre piece where the entire part was written out; he had to spend hours with the composer to make it sound like what he had in mind.
 
#203
Steel is definitely a bear to play! Between knee levers, pedals, volume pedals, fingerpicks and the bar there's a lot to think about. Jim Hoke, a great Nashville sax and harp player who's played with Emmylou Harris among others, has picked up the instrument. I'll have to check with him and see if he reads on steel.
 
#204
but i can't resist....
When I was in music school mornings were filled with theory, ear training, sight-singing, arranging, and composition classes. Afternoons were filled with a variety of rehearsals from orchestra, to big band, wind ensemble, to jazz combo, to small chamber groups. Then onto the gig where we often used chord charts (real book lead sheets), and even number charts, so getting through the day required a variety of reading skills. If you are interested in playing different kinds of music, being able to read will help you achieve that. If your reading skills limit you, then try to improve (a teacher will help). It isn't elitist to read, anymore than being a non-reader makes one a terrible person. I don't think McCartney reads.......
JS
 
#205
Roy Vogt said:
That sax tab is amazing! Speechless!
I'm at soundcheck for my gig. We're the incidental band for the Julep fundraiser in Louisville. 90 minutes before Rodney Atkins. Looks like about 700 people at The Galt House.Home by midnight and I'm probably getting paid what Rodney's bassist is getting for the date.
Yep, another lame reading gig.....;)
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Boy, that's just got to suck the life out of you.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!
 
#206
buddyro57 said:
I don't think McCartney reads.......
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He doesn't, and a lot of people like to point to him as an example of not needing to know this stuff, but that dude knows everything about music except the dots. He certainly is an expert on chord theory, time sigs, arranging, etc., and was and is a voracious learner who's always looking to push his compositional horizons.
 
#207
OP, I totally agree with you. A very good friend of mine, a skilled guitar player, recently wanted to get into playing jazz. The guy has been playing for at least 10 years and can solo the absolute s*** out of his axe, but has been relying on tabs exclusively since the beginning. I tried to jam a few standards with him to get him started, but we couldn't play anything together - he couldn't work with lead sheets. He couldn't figure out chords, didn't know the difference between a minor and a major chord/scale, etc. The guy didn't even know where the notes were on his guitar, even open strings. Given his skill level, I was flabbergasted. What was intended to be jam sessions turned into "music theory 101" lessons. Learning to read opens a world of possibilities, and it's easy.
 
#208
At the end of the day, there really aren't any downsides to knowing how to read music. There are a few possible ones to not knowing how to read music.

Is reading music an absolute requirement for playing bass? Of course not... but knowing how can only make the experience richer.

No rights or wrongs here... everyone's got to figure out where they want to invest their time.
 
#210
Frank77 said:
OP, I totally agree with you. A very good friend of mine, a skilled guitar player, recently wanted to get into playing jazz. The guy has been playing for at least 10 years and can solo the absolute s*** out of his axe, but has been relying on tabs exclusively since the beginning. I tried to jam a few standards with him to get him started, but we couldn't play anything together - he couldn't work with lead sheets. He couldn't figure out chords, didn't know the difference between a minor and a major chord/scale, etc. The guy didn't even know where the notes were on his guitar, even open strings. Given his skill level, I was flabbergasted. What was intended to be jam sessions turned into "music theory 101" lessons. Learning to read opens a world of possibilities, and it's easy.
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I've seen the same thing happen. Players get to a stage in life where they might like to try non-rock genres, and they hit a wall. In fact, it seems like a lot of jazz guitarists started out on violin.
 
#211
Slowgypsy said:
At the end of the day, there really aren't any downsides to knowing how to read music. There are a few possible ones to not knowing how to ready music.

Is reading music an absolute requirement for playing bass? Of course not... but knowing how can only make the experience richer.

No rights or wrongs here... everyone's got to figure out where they want to invest their time.
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Nicely said.
 
#213
I've nothing against TAB in BP or elsewhere. But the idea that people learn to read notation only if they have lessons paid for by mommy and daddy is a really lame attempt at self-justification for not being able to read, and I'm sure the guy who wrote it knows that, deep down. I don't envy him his obvious inferiority complex, not one bit.
 
#214
JimmyM said:
He doesn't, and a lot of people like to point to him as an example of not needing to know this stuff, but that dude knows everything about music except the dots. He certainly is an expert on chord theory, time sigs, arranging, etc., and was and is a voracious learner who's always looking to push his compositional horizons.
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"Paul McCartney can't read music."

"You're not Paul McCartney."

"Geddy Lee..."

"You're not him either."

Learning to read music does something else for the student that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. It speeds up the learning curve for other instruments. At the age of 34 I became a student of the Great Highland Bagpipe and was a quick study specifically because I could read. Bagpipe music is rough at first. It is peppered with so many grace notes it tends to look more like a Jackson Pollock than a piece of music.

Learning to read can never hurt your musical ability, but *not* learning to read sure can.
 
#215
Sgt. Rock said:
"Paul McCartney can't read music...."
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I love hearing that argument. :p As if the inability to read and the pride in not being able to read is the key to having Paul McCartney-like success. :rolleyes:

And the other statement that usually goes along with that one is "i don't nEed no muzic nAzI jaming there stooPid ideaz dOWn my throte. I jus wanna make music that f'ing RAWKS and i dont need no stpuid lessonz for ThAt!" (spelling mistakes, punctuation mistakes, and capitalization mistakes are intentional, because that's EXACTLY how that statement is usually delivered. ;) ). I love hearing that one too. :p
 
#216
evenintheshower said:
I would never look down on somebody just because they can't read. If you are able to do what you like and other people are happy with what you do, who cares?
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As a non reader I appreciate this attitude. It can be intimidating when you find yourself in the presence of someone who has more training and ability to you.

The paranoia sets in and you start thinking "gosh, this person must think i'm crap. He walks in and stares at a piece of paper and plays a song he's never heard and it sounds perfect. Meanwhile, I'm over here with a chord chart carefully listening to the beat and trying to anticipate changes like a .... kid sitting in class with a dunce cap in the corner."

There's a blind pianist who I play with sometimes who has perfect pitch and I'm terrified to bring my fretless bass around when he is present because I know his sense of pitch and intonation is far more accurate than mine. No one wants to look like an idiot to anyone. Even if they are a nice guy and would never say anything to hurt your feelings.

...except maybe on talkbass.
 
#217
Nev375 said:
Reading this thread makes me kinda want to take another stab at learning to reading music.
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I felt that way about 5,000 posts ago. Now I kinda feel like I never want to read another post again. Just kidding! Well, mostly just kidding:hmm:

Is anyone here on TB (or anyone you know) really against learning SN? I mean, really AGAINST it? As a way of life? On philosophical grounds? Not just making a choice for themselves, but saying that the very idea of learning SN is bad for anyone and everyone?

I think I will be surprised if ANYONE feels this way.
 
#218
You've inspired me. Now do any of you elitists feel like lending a hand. :) http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/request-music-readers-879528/

I'd also like to contribute something here again. Haven't been reading every post, so oops on me something like this has been said already. Regarding the elitest comment, and the idea of being fortunate enough to have rich parents... while I don't completely agree with what that person said, I think I understand where he's coming from. People who don't read are at a clear disadvantage. Agreed, a handful of those people are just plain lazy, but others (myself included) didn't start playing bass with learning to read, and have indeed put hours and hours of work into learning our craft. Sometimes more than the avid reader, as we have a different set of hurdles we have to jump in order to achieve any level of success with the instrument. While I don't minmimize or discount the effort that goes into reading, I feel a great deal of readers were fortunate enough to either have supportive parents who pushed them to learn the "proper" way from the beginning, or some way or another just realized themselves that this was the way to start. Having learned early on IMO is a gift. A huge gift. It just becomes part of what you do. Learning to read 10 or 20 years into your career, when all your bass playing time is going towards learning material, gigging, writing, recording. etc. (and you can already play things you'll likely never be able to read or understand ) is a more than daunting and frustrating task. I'm not an idiot, and I consider myself a better than average player who's landed some better than decent gigs, but I struggle with learning music. And I'm sometimes, often, envious of those who can.

I think it might serve other well to be understanding, and perhaps supportive of those who can't read, as opposed to hit them over the head with a stick. Readers have a skill that I believe they should be greatful for. I know it doesn't come easy to anyone, but it comes a whole lot harder to some than I think people understand.

And yes, I know there are the people who pick a book up to read at age 50 and learn in a month, but that's not my story. And it's not the story of many.

Hittin the books again bigtime today. :) A reminder for anyone who'd like to help http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/request-music-readers-879528/ .
 
#219
I can read music ( albeit very slowly). I never tried tabs. When I was young and learning to play it seemed to me that reading music had very little to do with the guitar. I considered tabs or music books cheating and learned everything by ear. I believe this helped me tremendously with my ability to understand and identify notes, tunings etc.. I pick songs out by myself very quickly. When I was about 18 and started college I took a couple piano classes and quickly learned the value of reading and understanding sheet music. That said, I have so rarely had a use for it since then that my sight reading skills are minimal these days.

Long story short, I would encourage all musicians to learn to read music, but at the same time I think BP magazine will lose a lot of readers if they eliminate tabs and let's face it, they really can't afford to lose any readers. lol
 

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