Reading music and elitism

[mbeall]

I've been thinking about what in this thread irritates me so much about the description of SN literacy as "elitist". I hate that the term "elitist" has become a pejorative because it implies that ignorance is some kind of virtue. I don't care if someone does not want to learn to read as that is their prerogative. The time and effort needed to acquire and maintain the skill may not be needed or considered worth the investment in their particular musical application. Fine. But to imply in a general instruction forum for music that learning SD is not a skill worth pursuing to become a great player is borderline reprehensible. There are many young and impressionable players on these boards. Some of them have dreams of doing this for a living. To make any one of them believe that they have just a good of a shot at a lasting career playing music without learning to read is nothing less then sabotage. Stop it. Very few get to make their house payments by being a member of a famous rock band pumping 8th notes over 4 chords per song for 30 years. Wouldn't it be a shame if someone who loves music has to stop doing it professionally because their band didn't "make it" and had to take a job they are not passionate about instead of doing something they love because they decided to forgo skills deemed as "elitist" back when they were young and rebellious. You know, 'cause reading music isn't "punk" or "metal" or whatever anti-establishment musical label that could be used to justify avoiding the work. Now that I think of it one of the most highly revered metal bass players of all time could read so take that to the bank. Cliff 'em all.

Tabs aren't going away. Ed Friedland already made a very clear case of the benefits in that it reaches more people. This is a good thing. Developmentally speaking I think tabs are not the enemy of SN but rather the enemy of ear training but that is another discussion entirely.

Mike

 

[mbeall]

I'm just now teaching a High School Freshman "Teen Town" using the concept of positions

This makes me happy. You are a beautiful person.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I've been thinking about what in this thread irritates me so much about the description of SN literacy as "elitist". I hate that the term "elitist" has become a pejorative because it implies that ignorance is some kind of virtue. I don't care if someone does not want to learn to read as that is their prerogative. The time and effort needed to acquire and maintain the skill may not be needed or considered worth the investment in their particular musical application. Fine. But to imply in a general instruction forum for music that learning SD is not a skill worth pursuing to become a great player is borderline reprehensible. There are many young and impressionable players on these boards. Some of them have dreams of doing this for a living. To make any one of them believe that they have just a good of a shot at a lasting career playing music without learning to read is nothing less then sabotage. Stop it. Very few get to make their house payments by being a member of a famous rock band pumping 8th notes over 4 chords per song for 30 years. Wouldn't it be a shame if someone who loves music has to stop doing it professionally because their band didn't "make it" and had to take a job they are not passionate about instead of doing something they love because they decided to forgo skills deemed as "elitist" back when they were young and rebellious. You know, 'cause reading music isn't "punk" or "metal" or whatever anti-establishment musical label that could be used to justify avoiding the work. Now that I think of it one of the most highly revered metal bass players of all time could read so take that to the bank. Cliff 'em all.

Tabs aren't going away. Ed Friedland already made a very clear case of the benefits in that it reaches more people. This is a good thing. Developmentally speaking I think tabs are not the enemy of SN but rather the enemy of ear training but that is another discussion entirely.

Mike

Matt Koon (Virginia based teacher and musician and a fixture at Victor Wooten's Bass and Nature Camps) wrote a great blog about this. Check it out:
http://musictheories.wordpress.com/

 

[JimmyM]

I've been thinking about what in this thread irritates me so much about the description of SN literacy as "elitist". I hate that the term "elitist" has become a pejorative because it implies that ignorance is some kind of virtue. I don't care if someone does not want to learn to read as that is their prerogative. The time and effort needed to acquire and maintain the skill may not be needed or considered worth the investment in their particular musical application. Fine. But to imply in a general instruction forum for music that learning SD is not a skill worth pursuing to become a great player is borderline reprehensible. There are many young and impressionable players on these boards. Some of them have dreams of doing this for a living. To make any one of them believe that they have just a good of a shot at a lasting career playing music without learning to read is nothing less then sabotage. Stop it. Very few get to make their house payments by being a member of a famous rock band pumping 8th notes over 4 chords per song for 30 years. Wouldn't it be a shame if someone who loves music has to stop doing it professionally because their band didn't "make it" and had to take a job they are not passionate about instead of doing something they love because they decided to forgo skills deemed as "elitist" back when they were young and rebellious. You know, 'cause reading music isn't "punk" or "metal" or whatever anti-establishment musical label that could be used to justify avoiding the work. Now that I think of it one of the most highly revered metal bass players of all time could read so take that to the bank. Cliff 'em all.

Tabs aren't going away. Ed Friedland already made a very clear case of the benefits in that it reaches more people. This is a good thing. Developmentally speaking I think tabs are not the enemy of SN but rather the enemy of ear training but that is another discussion entirely.

Mike

Great post, Mike. Even a lot of famous musicians end up broke and out of the business by the end of their 15 minutes because they think they have so much money that they could never spend it all. Wrong. Also, there are a lot of delusional people out there who have no clue they haven't been particularly singled out for greatness...they can usually be spotted by their dedication to "musical integrity" and their striking ability to point out "posers." They often think they're going to have long lasting careers because they spent so much time on learning what separates a poser from the real deal. And one of the sure signs of a "poser" is a musical education.

But you ain't gonna be 21 forever.

 

[Scot]

I think that it is probably worth pointing out that tab tells you only what fret to play on. It doesn't provide any information about fingering.

Tab does indirectly provide information about fingering. For example, let's take an Eb note notated as a quarter note on the 3rd space on the staff in bass clef standard notation. We could play it on the D string with the 1st finger or on the A, E (or B) strings with any finger. If the tab says to play it on the D string we pretty much know we're going to use the 1st finger to stop the note. Let's say we have the same Eb quarter note followed by an F quarter note on the 4th line of the staff. There are a number of possibilities as to where to play the 2 notes and how to finger them. Both notes can be played on the same string, adjacent strings, etc. If the tab says to play the Eb on the A string and the F on the D string it's very likely that the fingering would be to use the 4th finger for the Eb note and the 1st finger for the F note.

I'm not at all trying to support the use of tab over standard notation! We're talking about the use of them in a magazine for educating us bass players so I can see some validity in including tabs in the magazine.

That said, I really do think that learning to read standard music notation is beneficial to all bassists, whether or not they actually use charts/music on a gig, session, rehearsals, etc. Music theory, ear training, fingerboard knowledge and reading notation are completely intertwined and all help each other.

 

[4OnTheFloor]

Tab does indirectly provide information about fingering. For example, let's take an Eb note notated as a quarter note on the 3rd space on the staff in bass clef standard notation. We could play it on the D string with the 1st finger or on the A, E (or B) strings with any finger. If the tab says to play it on the D string we pretty much know we're going to use the 1st finger to stop the note. Let's say we have the same Eb quarter note followed by an F quarter note on the 4th line of the staff. There are a number of possibilities as to where to play the 2 notes and how to finger them. Both notes can be played on the same string, adjacent strings, etc. If the tab says to play the Eb on the A string and the F on the D string it's very likely that the fingering would be to use the 4th finger for the Eb note and the 1st finger for the F note.

I'm not at all trying to support the use of tab over standard notation! We're talking about the use of them in a magazine for educating us bass players so I can see some validity in including tabs in the magazine.

That said, I really do think that learning to read standard music notation is beneficial to all bassists, whether or not they actually use charts/music on a gig, session, rehearsals, etc. Music theory, ear training, fingerboard knowledge and reading notation are completely intertwined and all help each other.

wouldn't it be much more beneficial to struggle through making decisions on what is the "best" way for ME to play a given notated lick, rather than being spoon fed on finger and hand positions? After a while, as a musician gets used to reading "ahead" they will recognize certain patterns and get used to where their hand should go based on the notes following the one they are playing. The same way guitar players know the hand formation for a chord when they see the note stacks (much more difficult IMO and I am not a guitar player).

 

[Russell L]

I've read standard notation for 50 years. The only use I've had for tab was when I was teaching. It came in handy for students, kinda as an "illustration." But, I find it devilish to try to actually read it.

What gets me is the use of the word "elitist" in this thread. What's elite about being able to read music? Nothing, unless the reader thinks of himself as some hot shot because he/she can read. Actually, anyone can be an elitist about anything. But that doesn't make it right.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I've read standard notation for 50 years. The only use I've had for tab was when I was teaching. It came in handy for students, kinda as an "illustration." But, I find it devilish to try to actually read it.

What gets me is the use of the word "elitist" in this thread. What's elite about being able to read music? Nothing, unless the reader thinks of himself as some hot shot because he/she can read. Actually, anyone can be an elitist about anything. But that doesn't make it right.

I think that attitude is part of the "dumbing down" of American society. It's a drag, but it makes for a docile and easily manipulated population. Hmmmmm......

 

[Scot]

wouldn't it be much more beneficial to struggle through making decisions on what is the "best" way for ME to play a given notated lick, rather than being spoon fed on finger and hand positions? After a while, as a musician gets used to reading "ahead" they will recognize certain patterns and get used to where their hand should go based on the notes following the one they are playing. The same way guitar players know the hand formation for a chord when they see the note stacks (much more difficult IMO and I am not a guitar player).

Do you think we should rally to get another edition of the Simandl bass method where we have any positions referenced in the exercises removed? Shouldn't bassist just have to struggle and figure all the fingerboard knowledge/position lessons on their own so that they can best find THEIR way of playing things? We might as well just get rid of teachers all together if the idea is to struggle through making the decisions and just learn everything the hard way.

There are so many ways to learn and under so many different circumstances that I really shy away from committing to any "best" way to do anything. The "best" way for me is to try to keep an open mind and approach musical problems in a dynamic and not static way.

Seriously, we're still talking about including tabs with musical examples in an educational magazine, right?

 

[JimmyM]

Again, I'll point out to everyone that standard notation has ALL the ability of pointing out where on the neck you should play something as tab does, should you want it. So arguing whether fingerings should be given or not is moot.

 

[Gaius46]

I think that it is probably worth pointing out that tab tells you only what fret to play on. It doesn't provide any information about fingering.

Thank you. The misuse of "fingering" has been making me nuts and I was about to post the same thing.

TAB tells you what position to play that "A" in. It doesn't tell you which finger to use - which is what fingering means.

And in any case both can be depicted on standard notation charts using position numbers above the staff and numbers (for left hand) and letters (for the right) to denote which fingers to use. Commonplace in fingerstyle guitar playing.

 

[Gaius46]

Do you think we should rally to get another edition of the Simandl bass method where we have any positions referenced in the exercises removed? Shouldn't bassist just have to struggle and figure all the fingerboard knowledge/position lessons on their own so that they can best find THEIR way of playing things? We might as well just get rid of teachers all together if the idea is to struggle through making the decisions and just learn everything the hard way.

There are so many ways to learn and under so many different circumstances that I really shy away from committing to any "best" way to do anything. The "best" way for me is to try to keep an open mind and approach musical problems in a dynamic and not static way.

Seriously, we're still talking about including tabs with musical examples in an educational magazine, right?

Agreed. As a learning tool fingerings and position markings are very useful. Once past that the player should figure out what fingerings and positions make the most sense for him.

 

[bass_study]

There are just too many excuses to not to learn reading music.

 

[dave64o]

I've read standard notation for 50 years. The only use I've had for tab was when I was teaching. It came in handy for students, kinda as an "illustration." But, I find it devilish to try to actually read it.

What gets me is the use of the word "elitist" in this thread. What's elite about being able to read music? Nothing, unless the reader thinks of himself as some hot shot because he/she can read. Actually, anyone can be an elitist about anything. But that doesn't make it right.

I don't think it's that anyone who can read is proclaiming themselves as elite. It's that there are many who WON'T read and also take pride in their inability to read who then call those that advocate learning to read "elitist".

These are are the same people who give the argument "Well, Paul McCartney can't read music!", as if if being unable to read is the key to Paul McCartney's success and so they're going to follow his path to riches and immortality. These people are closely related to those who refuse to learn any music theory because "I don't want some loser who never made it shoving HIS preconceived ideas about HIS loser music down my throat and killing MY creativity and MY innate ability to f'ing RAWK!!!!!".

Those are the people who tend to use the term "elitist".

 

[electracoyote]

TAB tells you what position to play that "A" in. It doesn't tell you which finger to use - which is what fingering means.

Good TAB notates which finger to use, especially on complex pieces where the fingering can make a big difference. The fingering can be notated below the "staff" (or strings).

 

[BobaFret]

The context of this thread has changed quite a bit. The comments in Bass Player magazine that were from some SN readers were really disrespectful in how they came across ( at least to me, and I don't use TAB ).

That is where elitist came from, NOT that reading in general is an elitist act.

 

[Scot]

Agreed. As a learning tool fingerings and position markings are very useful. Once past that the player should figure out what fingerings and positions make the most sense for him.

I totally hear you. Although, even the most seasoned player/reader might occasionally want to "get inside the head" of another bassist and see exactly how that bassist approached a line. Figuring out how something lays for you and getting inside the head of another bassist are 2 completely different deals that are both very valid at any stage of a player's development.

Sorry to the OP: I know fingerings and positions are in your mind off topic but those points do seem a little relevant to the thread. Hopefully there's still some room for thoughtful discussion about music and bass playing in this thread.

 

[joe vegas]

been reading notation for 40 years, and it continually opens new worlds for me, like any great language.
seems to me the time it takes to learn tablature would be better spent on learning notation. tab is great for figuring out the chords of an AC/DC song. notation gives you access to perhaps a half-millennium of human musical history. if that actually matters to one.

 

[lfmn16]

Good TAB notates which finger to use, especially on complex pieces where the fingering can make a big difference. The fingering can be notated below the "staff" (or strings).

There was no such thing as tab when I started. We wrote in our Simandl books above the note which finger to use and which position, if applicable.

I don't think that being able to read music makes you a better person, but I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue that reading TAB is better than reading notation; maybe easier for very basic pieces, but not better.

I know I sound like the old guy yelling "Get off my lawn" but today it often seems that people are looking for the easy way of doing things. Becoming a good musician takes a lot of hard work, there are no shortcuts. Everybody likes to point to the guy who never took a lesson and can't read a note but is a great player (and I've played with two during my time). The reality is that I've never known anyone who took lessons with a good teacher, learned to read music, and learned some theory and thought it was a waste of time. I've also never lost an audition because I knew too much.

 

[JimmyM]

The context of this thread has changed quite a bit. The comments in Bass Player magazine that were from some SN readers were really disrespectful in how they came across ( at least to me, and I don't use TAB ).

That is where elitist came from, NOT that reading in general is an elitist act.

Being honest is not an act of elitism.