Double Bass REALLY Learning a tune

[urbannerds]

Dude, I wish I was doing that. It's like practicing while you sleep!

I think it's a good sign. Recently, there's been alot of new research saying that sleep is important for the brain's ability to learn. Sleep helps you process all the things you picked up during the day and aids retention. As long as you feel rested in the morning, you should be fine.

I don't practice in my sleep tho, however in the early morning I compose in my sleep from time to time. I'll wake up with a new tune in my head and I'll end jumping out of bed and scramble to record it or write it down somehow. Don't happen often tho.

It is kind of freaky, though it hasn't happenned in a couple of months now.

 

[JazzDude]

Because the ultimate goal is not to work on arpeggiation but on getting the sound of the harmony of a specific composition in your ear.

If this is the goal, shouldn't you play the upper extensions of a chord? For a bassline, the b9 of a D7b9 is not important, but for a soloist, it is *the* most important note.

To stay with 4 notes, you can leave out the 5th, which is the least important note unless it's altered.

 

[Michael Case]

The idea is to hear the basic harmony. The harmonic movement of the tune. The melodic/solo ideas come in the later half of the exercise.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

And NOT becuase you're diving into a grab bag of what notes are supposed to work, but becuase you are actually hearing that specific pitch as part of a LINE of specific pitches that you are actually hearing, albeit internally.

Foundation, THEN walls.

 

[JazzDude]

The idea is to hear the basic harmony. The harmonic movement of the tune. The melodic/solo ideas come in the later half of the exercise.

My point is the extensions are part of the harmony. Those notes are important for your solo ideas, so you'll want to hear it before you play it, right?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

My point is the extensions are part of the harmony. Those notes are important for your solo ideas, so you'll want to hear it before you play it, right?

Look, chief, you can keep doing what you want and you can start your own thread about just where that's got you. Why don't we leave this one for the methodology as put forth and I won't come over to yours and put my two cents in.
Basically , I don't care what you do or what you think of this method. It HAS worked for me and I think it can work for others. I don't think that mucking about with it is a worthwhile exercise (look back at the foundations analogy) and if you want to do it, feel free.

Just do it elsewhere.

 

[Michael Case]

My point is the extensions are part of the harmony. Those notes are important for your solo ideas, so you'll want to hear it before you play it, right?

Would you play all extensions as your walking line? If you did your walking wouldn't reflect the BASIC harmony that make the extensions what they are. The root, third, fifth, and seventh need to be there for the extensions to be extensions. My understanding of this exercise (as limited as it is) goes like this. The solos lines you play are a reaction to the basic harmony being played, if you play a flat 9th it is because you hear that note as a color, tension, whatever against the pallet of R, 3rd, 5th, 7th. By playing the vanilla harmony in your chord line you're planting the harmonic motion in your ear. The extensions don't necessarily create harmonic motion, sit down at a keyboard and play a ii7, V7, I7 without any tensions the chords will still resolve. Harmonic motion, in a nutshell is created by the basic chord tones resolving to each other.

What you want to do in the exercise is hear the ii chord moving to the V chord moving to the I chord. If you can't hear that movement how can you create a line with any meaning and intent that not only represents that movement, but also colors that sound?

 

[JazzDude]

I'll just respond to this and then get out - the OP has obviously taken offense at my posts in his thread. That certainly was not my intention. I'm sure that the exercise as stated has gotten him to a playing level somewhere above mine.

Would you play all extensions as your walking line? If you did your walking wouldn't reflect the BASIC harmony that make the extensions what they are. The root, third, fifth, and seventh need to be there for the extensions to be extensions.

I agree. When I'm thinking of a bassline, I stick with the chord tones up to the 7th. In a combo setting, the extensions are provided in the guitar or piano voicings. However, I am thinking beyond that, because I'm playing through the changes in isolation.

My understanding of this exercise (as limited as it is) goes like this. The solos lines you play are a reaction to the basic harmony being played, if you play a flat 9th it is because you hear that note as a color, tension, whatever against the pallet of R, 3rd, 5th, 7th. By playing the vanilla harmony in your chord line you're planting the harmonic motion in your ear. The extensions don't necessarily create harmonic motion, sit down at a keyboard and play a ii7, V7, I7 without any tensions the chords will still resolve. Harmonic motion, in a nutshell is created by the basic chord tones resolving to each other.

What you want to do in the exercise is hear the ii chord moving to the V chord moving to the I chord. If you can't hear that movement how can you create a line with any meaning and intent that not only represents that movement, but also colors that sound?

I'm doing this now with Stella - if you replace the 5th in the 7b9's with the b9, and the #11 in the A7#11, I think you'll hear what I'm talking about. The notes shouldn't be the first one of the chord, to, as you've said, maintain the basic movement, but having that tone in there makes it sound pretty cool.

It's working for me so far. No flames shooting out of my head - no nightmares.

 

[Peter_00]

Hey just one more question, do you play the 8th notes in your chord line swung or straight? It seem a bit easier to hear if they are straight but it's harder to hear the melody at the same time.

 

[BoulderBrow]

If this is the goal, shouldn't you play the upper extensions of a chord? For a bassline, the b9 of a D7b9 is not important, but for a soloist, it is *the* most important note.

To stay with 4 notes, you can leave out the 5th, which is the least important note unless it's altered.

My opinion is that learning the foundation harmony meaning the basic qualities of the chords like minor, dom, maj etc. allows you to learn the song without getting bogged down with extensions, which might not be played in every version of the song in question. If I come across a D7b9, it is already quite specific in its harmonic direction where as if I stick to using D7 (in this exercise) I'm free to imply whatever extension I want.

 

[JazzDude]

My opinion is that learning the foundation harmony meaning the basic qualities of the chords like minor, dom, maj etc. allows you to learn the song without getting bogged down with extensions, which might not be played in every version of the song in question. If I come across a D7b9, it is already quite specific in its harmonic direction where as if I stick to using D7 (in this exercise) I'm free to imply whatever extension I want.

The 7b9 is from the standard ii-V-i minor cadence, right? If you infer a natural 9 in there, it doesn't fit.

Many sax players will arpeggiate the chord progression. They might leave out the root or the 5th, but they won't leave out the upper notes - that's where the real character of a tune lives.

I think bass players tend to ignore anything following the 7th in a chord symbol. Those notes just don't sound right played down low. If you know the song as a bassist, you already know and play the bass-ic harmony.

To get the sounds of the upper voices in my head, I'm playing those upper notes, and leaving out the 5th on the chords with shorter duration.

 

[juanete]

I have a great improv. teacher that on top of learning the melody, chord changes, etc, he makes me play the tune, chords, bass line and improvise it in the 12 keys (ussually moving thru the circle of 5ths.).
I find that this is an awesome way to really internalize the chord progression and the tune in general, and also a great way to get to KNOW a tune.

 

[BoulderBrow]

The 7b9 is from the standard ii-V-i minor cadence, right? If you infer a natural 9 in there, it doesn't fit.

Many sax players will arpeggiate the chord progression. They might leave out the root or the 5th, but they won't leave out the upper notes - that's where the real character of a tune lives.

I think bass players tend to ignore anything following the 7th in a chord symbol. Those notes just don't sound right played down low. If you know the song as a bassist, you already know and play the bass-ic harmony.

To get the sounds of the upper voices in my head, I'm playing those upper notes, and leaving out the 5th on the chords with shorter duration.

I was using a b9 as an example but yes a natural 9 wouldn't 'fit' although the rules here are meant to be broken on occasion!

I'm not sure if you mean bassists ignoring extensions in general or in particular reference to walking lines, soloing etc. but I wouldn't say they tend to ignore but rather tread carefully between providing a solid foundation and adding 'colour'.

To get the extensions in my head I'll just think of the melody of the tune, that'll usually provide me with all I need to go on.

 

[Justin K-ski]

Great thread, this method is one of the most in-depth approaches I've ever seen.

I'm not sure I understand the chord line though. Say I'm doing Autumn Leaves (in g minor) would I play

C Eb G Bb l C Eb F A

In other words four descending notes, a leap down then four more ascending notes or should I they to give contour to the line

C Eb G Bb l A F Eb C

As a line more fluid, ascending then descending line?

Also, should I play the same chord line whenever I do the exercise or change it up each time?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

JUSTIN - remember what the exercise is. You're NOT trying to hear upper partials, you're not trying to come up with a bass line. All you are trying to do is get the basic harmony in your ear. The idea is to play a consistent line, this is NOT the improvisational part of the exercise. This is to get the sound of the basic harmony in your ear.

The sound of the basic harmony in your ear.

 

[Michael Case]

My question is this. Do you practice all four tunes in one session or do you do a tune a day type thing?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Generally all four. One chorus melody, one chorus chord line, one chorus improv, one chorus melody. At qnote=60 bpm, a 32 bar tune will only take 9 minutes to play 4 choruses.

If I'm having a particularly hard time introducing the newest rhythmic parameter, I tend to stick with the easiest (harmony to hear) tune to get the sound of the new unit in my ear.

 

[goolimari]

bump! awesome stuff!

 

[drew_bassmore]

Ed:

Regarding your original post at the beginning of this thread- I agree with you completely. The method you outline is a great way of internalizing the fundamental structure and harmony of a tune.

I have been following a similar method- almost to the letter of what you describe.

The one thing I admittedly have trouble with is recognizing the inversions as I am going through the exercise. I usually start with writing a line out. Then try to get away from the paper as a way of combatting this issue.

I also add two other follow up components to the exercise, once I have gotten as far as you describe, which is either find a transcribed line, or transcribe a straight walking line from one of the masters to get to a comfortable rhythmic pocket and then analyze how they are working with the changes of the selected song. The other step is to take a play-a-long version and play in the following sequence- 2 Feel, Walking, Solo (Maybe one based on Melody, then another chorus that are of my own devices- I try to limit to 2 choruses to keep focused and melodic), Walking, 2 Feel that fit the number of choruses the play-a-long facilitates.

I have limited experience yet playing out on purely jazz repertoire, but I am confidently hopeful that the above exercises are laying the foundation I need to not get yelled at by a bad ass piano player out of the gates.

Cheers,

drew

P.S. I should add that I am studying with an instructor (Glenn Richman) as well who is helping guage my progress. I believe that is a key component to development.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The one thing I admittedly have trouble with is recognizing the inversions as I am going through the exercise.

What work are you doing with triads and chords with Glenn?
The exercise that Joe had me do for fingering (and some benefit to hearing them) is playing first the triads in all inversions in closed position (in all "keys" but the example uses C)
First going
MAJOR root C E G
MINOR root C Eb G
DIM root C Eb Gb
AUG root C E G#
MAJ 1st E G C
MIN 1st Eb G C
DIM 1st Eb Gb C
AUG 1st E G# C
MAJ 2nd G C E
MIN 2nd G C Eb
DIM 2nd Gb Eb C
AUG 2nd G# E C
then
MAJ root MAJ1st MAJ2nd MIN root MIN1st MIN2nd DIMroot DIM 1st DIM 2nd AUG root AUG 1st AUG 2nd

Then you do the same exercise with open position triads
MAJ root C G E
MIN C G Eb
DIM C Gb Eb
AUG C G# E

G E C etc.

Then 4 part chords.

This is concurrent with ear training to get the sound of the chords in your ears. SO it's not so much remembering what notes are the inversion as it is hearing what voices can move and what voices can stay the same.