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Recently started using a DI Box, looking to minimize stage setup

tothemax

Supporting Member
Nov 1, 2013
1,458
1,693
Annapolis Area
I've never had an over the top rig, just the basics to do what I need. Playing in a 5 piece, medium volume classic rock band I've been using an Ampeg BA-210 with a PF-210 cab. Since I started using the MXR M80, if the PA has subs I'll only use the BA-210 so I can hear myself (and DI through the PA). Like most of us, looking to expand our range and tone I was wondering if I should look for a head to use with the PF-210 and have that as an option. I've always thought the Micro SVT stack was a cool idea, but not sure if it would be any different than the BA-210 (micro SVT comes in 100w, or 200w vs. 283w on the 210). Adding a head to the Porta Flex would provide some latitude in tones and wattage depending on the head (plus a chance to use the flip top). I won't lie, there is something about the Ampeg tone...

Just thinking out loud here...
 
I've never had an over the top rig, just the basics to do what I need. Playing in a 5 piece, medium volume classic rock band I've been using an Ampeg BA-210 with a PF-210 cab. Since I started using the MXR M80, if the PA has subs I'll only use the BA-210 so I can hear myself (and DI through the PA). Like most of us, looking to expand our range and tone I was wondering if I should look for a head to use with the PF-210 and have that as an option. I've always thought the Micro SVT stack was a cool idea, but not sure if it would be any different than the BA-210 (micro SVT comes in 100w, or 200w vs. 283w on the 210). Adding a head to the Porta Flex would provide some latitude in tones and wattage depending on the head (plus a chance to use the flip top). I won't lie, there is something about the Ampeg tone...

Just thinking out loud here...
Sounds like you'd just be spending money to spend it. If you've got a rig you're happy with, stick with it. If you need to scale up, that's a different story, but that's not really the vibe these days.
 
Just GAS thoughts... my rig is fine, as they say first world problems... :rolleyes:

My thoughts were that a lighter rig would be nice, which segued to the Micro. I saw a used one last time I was in one of our local shops at a good price, it was the 100w version. Just wondering if it would have enough volume on stage, our keyboard player has a Leslie cab that is pretty loud. My 210 is just loud enough by itself on stage, which was where the thought about finding a more powerful head for the PF 210 cab. The PF with a head will probably weigh in about the same as the BA210.
 
How much of a decibel change is attributable to power
1-100W = 20dB
1-200W = 23dB (+3dB over 100W)
1-283W = 24.5dB (+1.5dB over 200W, +4.5dB over 100W)

In all honesty, I would not consider the CL as it's rated 100W at 8 ohms minimum. The Micro VR is rated 150W at 8 ohms at 200W at 4 ohms. Per the Amp Lab at BGM for the Micro VR, it makes more than rated power. I would personally want more than 200W though.

  • Ampeg BA210
    • Weight 48lbs
    • Power Rating Output 283W with internal speaker/450W with 8 ohm extension
    • Sensitivity of 210 UNKNOWN
    • SPL at 283W UNKNOWN
The Sensitivity and calculated SPL of the BA210 are unknown, but if it is loud enough for your needs it's good enough.

PF210HE
  • Weight 47.6lbs
  • Power Rating 450W RMS
  • Sensitivity 99.6dB 1W/1m
  • Calculated SPL at 450W ~126dB
    • at 100W ~119.6dB
    • at 200W ~122.6dB
    • at 283W ~124.1dB
The PF210HE is almost as heavy as the BA210. IMHO not a particularly light cab. Per the specs, the power rating and sensitivity are pretty decent IMHO.

For comparison:
  • Mesa Subway 210
    • Weight 43lbs
    • Power Rating 600W RMS/500W mechanical
    • Sensitivity 98.1dB 1W/1m
    • SPL at 600W ~125.9dB, SPL at 500W ~125.1dB
The Mesa is 5lbs lighter than the BA210. It has the highest power rating and lowest published sensitivity. This means it may require more power to produce equal volume to the Ampeg or Markbass cabs. Since sensitivity specs are not standardized, you can only use them as sort of a ballpark estimate.
  • Markbass MB58R 210 Energy
    • Weight 24.5lbs
    • Power Rating 400W
    • Sensitivity 101dB 1W/1m
    • SPL at 400W ~127dB
Lightest weight and highest sensitivity rating. If the priority is keeping the weight down, you might want to consider the Markbass or similar light-weight cab, with a compact/light amp.
 
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How much of a decibel change is attributable to power
1-100W = 20dB
1-200W = 23dB (+3dB over 100W)
1-283W = 24.5dB (+1.5dB over 200W, +4.5dB over 100W)

In all honesty, I would not consider the CL as it's rated 100W at 8 ohms minimum. The Micro VR is rated 150W at 8 ohms at 200W at 4 ohms. Per the Amp Lab at BGM for the Micro VR, it makes more than rated power. I would personally want more than 200W though.

  • Ampeg BA210
    • Weight 48lbs
    • Power Rating Output 283W with internal speaker/450W with 8 ohm extension
    • Sensitivity of 210 UNKNOWN
    • SPL at 283W UNKNOWN
The Sensitivity and calculated SPL of the BA210 are unknown, but if it is loud enough for your needs it's good enough.

PF210HE
  • Weight 47.6lbs
  • Power Rating 450W RMS
  • Sensitivity 99.6dB 1W/1m
  • Calculated SPL at 450W ~126dB
    • at 100W ~119.6dB
    • at 200W ~122.6dB
    • at 283W ~124.1dB
The PF210HE is almost as heavy as the BA210. IMHO not a particularly light cab. Per the specs, the power rating and sensitivity are pretty decent IMHO.

For comparison:
  • Mesa Subway 210
    • Weight 43lbs
    • Power Rating 600W RMS/500W mechanical
    • Sensitivity 98.1dB 1W/1m
    • SPL at 600W ~125.9dB, SPL at 500W ~125.1dB
The Mesa is 5lbs lighter than the BA210. It has the highest power rating and lowest published sensitivity. This means it may require more power to produce equal volume to the Ampeg or Markbass cabs. Since sensitivity specs are not standardized, you can only use them as sort of a ballpark estimate.
  • Markbass MB58R 210 Energy
    • Weight 24.5lbs
    • Power Rating 400W
    • Sensitivity 101dB 1W/1m
    • SPL at 400W ~127dB
Lightest weight and highest sensitivity rating. If the priority is keeping the weight down, you might want to consider the Markbass or similar light-weight cab, with a compact/light amp.
Just note that you need to be careful when comparing published specs, especially sensitivity specs.

The Subway sensitivity specs are averaged over a defined bandwidth and based on RMS units in 1/2-space. It’s not uncommon to be vague in how sensitivity is measured and stated which can greatly influence the numbers. Just changing from average to a single frequency can increase numbers by as much as 6dB.
 
I've always thought that lightweight wedge shaped kickback combos were the most practical for this sort of application. Maybe the Markbass 210 or the Hartke KB12 or KB15. The Hartke seems perfect in a way, just a 3 band EQ and pre-only XLR out. Get your sound from your pedal board, and use the amp as a stage monitor, pointed right at your ears.
 
I’d avoid the Micro CL, I think even as a stage monitor, you’re gonna run out of power pretty quickly. Do the PF heads still have issues? Given that the non-tube ones can only be found used these days, I’d be wary to roll the dice on one of those. The BA seems like it’s working fine for your needs, but if you’re trying to go lighter, I’d honestly just sell both and go shopping with whatever money you recoup, there are plenty of lighter options out there these days. I’d imagine that would even get you most of the way to a used RB combo, which is still heavier than its competitors (Fender, GK, MB), but definitely lighter than what you’re rolling with now.
 
I've never had an over the top rig, just the basics to do what I need. Playing in a 5 piece, medium volume classic rock band I've been using an Ampeg BA-210 with a PF-210 cab. Since I started using the MXR M80, if the PA has subs I'll only use the BA-210 so I can hear myself (and DI through the PA). Like most of us, looking to expand our range and tone I was wondering if I should look for a head to use with the PF-210 and have that as an option. I've always thought the Micro SVT stack was a cool idea, but not sure if it would be any different than the BA-210 (micro SVT comes in 100w, or 200w vs. 283w on the 210). Adding a head to the Porta Flex would provide some latitude in tones and wattage depending on the head (plus a chance to use the flip top). I won't lie, there is something about the Ampeg tone...

Just thinking out loud here...


The Ampeg micro-stack, comes, as you mentioned, in two flavors: the micro CL and the micro VR. The VR head is 200 Watts (@ 4 Ohms -- 150 W @ 8 Ohms) and the VR stack comes with an SVT 210 AV, which is a legit -- if compact and medium-duty -- cab (also rated for 200 Watts). The CL head is 100 Watts and the cab (MC 210E -- only sold with the CL head) is likewise rated for 100 Watts.

I've only noodled around on the CL stack once, that I recall, in a store. I've played through the VR stack (with one and with two of the 210 AV cabs) on stage a few times.

I would not be confident playing the CL stack in many live settings with the sort of band you describe AND (I could be wrong about this), I don't think that the CL head will drive a 4 Ohm load (which would mean no hooking up two cabs), which would make it a hard no for me.

The VR head with one 210 AV sounded really nice -- appropriate tone and more-or-less pocketed itself into the mix -- with a four string bass at a medium-level pub jam. Managed to carry the small room until the drummer started to open up, then it struggled (especially with the house bassist's five string -- whose rig it was). Same rig, same place, with a second 210 AV cab (skinny stack) did much better -- sound was more full and dynamic, easier -- but it's still a medium-duty 410 (and wouldn't be my first choice with a 5 string).
...My thoughts were that a lighter rig would be nice, which segued to the Micro. I saw a used one last time I was in one of our local shops at a good price, it was the 100w version. Just wondering if it would have enough volume on stage, our keyboard player has a Leslie cab that is pretty loud. My 210 is just loud enough by itself on stage, which was where the thought about finding a more powerful head for the PF 210 cab. The PF with a head will probably weigh in about the same as the BA210.

Neither micro 210 stack is going to match your BA 210 combo or your Portaflex 210 (if adequately powered) for volume. (Especially not the CL head or its associated cab -- not even close -- nor would I hold out much hope for it keeping up with a Leslie.)

If you dig the Ampeg sound, you could mount a PF-500 or, if you're careful, a PF-800 in your 210 HE cab, sell your combo, and add a second of the same cab (if you ever need it for louder stuff). It'd be a better-matched and more potent setup than your combo + 210, but isn't exactly minimizing (in terms of setup or $$$).

Two of the 210 AV cabs, stacked vertically, have a tiny, tiny stage footprint. I would pair them with something like a PF-350 (or other, similarly rated head that you like). You might find yourself using two cabs more often than currently (I don't know) and you'd probably still want some PA support for bigger rooms or louder shows (especially if your keys player is channeling Jimmy Smith).

Other possibilites: You could look at 2x10 or 1x12 cabs that are more potent than the 210 AV (but still light weight -- depends on how much you dig your PF-210 and whether the lighter weight is worth it to you) and a more powerful amp OR (maybe counterintuitive), pair a powerful head with a lightweight, modern 2x12 (possibly in 4 Ohms). You'd lose the tiny-rig/modular option, but the right cab wouldn't be much more, in terms of size or schlep, than your combo or current cab, and would cover most things.

Off the top of my head, the Genzler Nu-Classic 212, GK Neo IV 212 (4 Ohm version), Mesa Subway 212 would all be worth a look (I'm sure I'm forgetting some) among current offerings. If you want to keep it Ampeg, the 212 AV is highly regarded (though a little heavier and wider-footprint).

Lots of ways you could go.
 
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My opinion is to always show up over-powered and be able to turn down. It's worked way better than being under-powered and unable to turn up.

If your goal is to get rid of the combo, I'd stick a PF-500 or PF-800 inside the PF-210, then get a matching PF-210 for bigger gigs.
Kind of what I was thinking... I keep a BA115 at our practice space, I could swap it with the BA210 and trade it in on PF head and keep an eye out for a second cab. Always something... when we use the band PA we don't have subs so I need the stack.

Thanks
 
Kind of what I was thinking... I keep a BA115 at our practice space, I could swap it with the BA210 and trade it in on PF head and keep an eye out for a second cab. Always something... when we use the band PA we don't have subs so I need the stack.

Thanks
I just edited this into my previous post, so you might have missed it, but I think (I could be wrong -- will look into it, but if anyone can confirm, please do) that the Micro CL head is 8 Ohms only -- no 4 Ohm operation. Even if it wasn't under-powered for your needs, that would be enough to make me pass on it.

The more I read of what you post -- like about "needing the stack" (I assume your BA 210 combo + PF 210), here, when you use the band's PA, the more I think that a teeny-tiny rig isn't going to cut it for you.

EDIT: Since you mention having a BA 115 at your practice space -- and I've played through one of those on several occasions (house rig in a bar, with and without PA support, monitor with PA support in a club) -- the Micro CL stack would, I think, be a significant step down in volume. Micro VR + 210 AV should, I think, be in the same ballpark (never played 'em back-to-back), but not as loud as your 210 combo.
 
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Adding PF 500 is convenient with PF Cab making it combo but you have to buy used and PF series had some known problems early on so be careful

The Ampeg Venture V3 with your 2x10 cab should be plenty and upgrade in performance and features over BA combo
Good points about the PF 350/500/800 amps being discontinued -- I'd forgotten about that -- and about the reliability issues early on (I think those were only with the early PF500s -- it was discussed on TB at the time -- but I could be wrong and one should verify for himself).

The Venture V3 is rated for 300 Watts at 4 Ohms -- I didn't find an 8 Ohm power rating for it, but I'd guess 150-200 Watts, which is less than the OP gets from his combo, now (ditto with an extension cab, running at 4 Ohms).

The Portaflex 210 is an 8 Ohm cab rated for 450 Watts RMS. The PF-800 is rated for 400 W @ 8 Ohms. The PF-500 (300 W at 8 Ohms) is a little safer (you have to take the 450 Watt cab rating with a dash of salt), but people have used the 800 with the Portaflex 210 HE (discussed in the thread I linked: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/ampeg-pf800-with-pf-210he.1163038/).

Unless the speakers in the PF cab are way more sensitive than those in the combo (could be -- I dunno), I don't think OP would gain much (and might even lose some) by going with the Venture V3. The V7 (700 Watts @ 4 Ohms, probably 350-400 @ 8 Ohms) would, IMO, be a better match, whether running a single cab or two (though OP would have to use some caution if pushing the rig).

I think a lot of 500 Watt amps (often 300 W @ 8 Ohms) would do well, but I, personally, would want more than the V3, given what I've read from the OP.

Then again, I played through two only moderately efficient 1x12s yesterday, with 400 Watts, and was happily able to hang with enthusiastic drummers.
 
Good points about the PF 350/500/800 amps being discontinued -- I'd forgotten about that -- and about the reliability issues early on (I think those were only with the early PF500s -- it was discussed on TB at the time -- but I could be wrong and one should verify for himself).

The Venture V3 is rated for 300 Watts at 4 Ohms -- I didn't find an 8 Ohm power rating for it, but I'd guess 150-200 Watts, which is less than the OP gets from his combo, now (ditto with an extension cab, running at 4 Ohms).

The Portaflex 210 is an 8 Ohm cab rated for 450 Watts RMS. The PF-800 is rated for 400 W @ 8 Ohms. The PF-500 (300 W at 8 Ohms) is a little safer (you have to take the 450 Watt cab rating with a dash of salt), but people have used the 800 with the Portaflex 210 HE (discussed in the thread I linked: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/ampeg-pf800-with-pf-210he.1163038/).

Unless the speakers in the PF cab are way more sensitive than those in the combo (could be -- I dunno), I don't think OP would gain much (and might even lose some) by going with the Venture V3. The V7 (700 Watts @ 4 Ohms, probably 350-400 @ 8 Ohms) would, IMO, be a better match, whether running a single cab or two (though OP would have to use some caution if pushing the rig).

I think a lot of 500 Watt amps (often 300 W @ 8 Ohms) would do well, but I, personally, would want more than the V3, given what I've read from the OP.

Then again, I played through two only moderately efficient 1x12s yesterday, with 400 Watts, and was happily able to hang with enthusiastic drummers.
I hear you but your worried about power: I read OP looking to use setup for when he is in FOH as Stage monitor and feel using PF Cab and Venture will give him better performance, Tone, Etc. Over Combo and more than enough volume for that use

Yes V7 better choice if carrying club without being in FOH and maybe adding another cab for large Venue Gigs with no FOH when needed only

Remember he was considering Mini SVT as possible choice🙂
 
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I hear you but your worried about power: I read OP looking to use setup for when he is in FOH as Stage monitor and feel using PF Cab and Venture will give him better performance, Tone, Etc. Over Combo and more than enough volume for that use

Yes V7 better choice if carrying club without being in FOH and maybe adding another cab for large Venue Gigs with no FOH when needed only

Remember he was considering Mini SVT as possible choice🙂
I hear you -- and, to be fair, I'm not 100% clear on the OP's use case and volume needs -- his remark about "needing the stack" when using the band's PA (I read his post as "no bass in that PA" -- or is the bass in the PA, just no subs?) made me revise my original estimate upwards. I do think that tone with the PF 210 cab would likely be better than with the BA 210 combo.

I don't think the Micro CL would be enough for much. Micro VR, particularly with two 210 AV cabs (or two 210 AVs with a slightly more powerful amp) can be a nice setup (and one 210 might suffice fine as a stage monitor) but would, I think, still be less loud than his BA 210 combo + PF 210.

In general, I'd rather have more than I need and turn down, but you make good points. Perhaps OP can clarify.
 
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I hear you -- and, to be fair, I'm not 100% clear on the OP's use case and volume needs -- his remark about "needing the stack" when using the band's PA (I read his post as "no bass in that PA" -- or is the bass in the PA, just no subs?) made me revise my original estimate upwards. I do think that tone with the PF 210 cab would likely be better than with the BA 210 combo.

I don't think the Micro CL would be enough for much. Micro VR, particularly with two 210 AV cabs (or two 210 AVs with a slightly more powerful amp) can be a nice setup (and one 210 might suffice fine as a stage monitor) but would, I think, still be less loud than his BA 210 combo + PF 210.

In general, I'd rather have more than I need and turn down, but you make good points. Perhaps OP can clarify.
Really appreciate all the good feedback... being of the school to having a bit more power than needed, within reason. So as not having to push the gear to the limit. You are correct about the bands PA, it's a solid system but we built it to support vocals, kick, and congas. Everything else is back line, I've never had a problem getting a decent bass sound to the FOH with my BA210 "stack" using the bands PA, nor hearing myself. If you have ever played near a Hammond Leslie 3500 at volume, it's 360 degrees of sound. When we set up for a gig, it's usually a scramble to see who can set up with the drum kit between themselves and the Leslie :laugh:. But such is life, my BA's are both V2's with the wedge cab, even that won't push through when the Leslie is growling... Keyboard player is the BL, and an excellent player... and we've all overcompensated before...

Moving on, the V7 seems like a solid option and have good reviews... In the short term I'm covered but will keep an eye out for a good deal on a V7 head (or possibly a V3). In reviewing the V7, apparently it is overpowered for the PF-210HE cab alone but can be used with care. If that comes together look to score another PF-210 cab.

As an aside... I have to admit the BAv2 series have really been solid amps, no complaints. I bought the BA115 when they first came out... around 2014, then picked up the 210 on clearance when the Rocket series was released.

Thanks again...
 
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