Recording

[DwaynieAD]

the only thing the second recording has going for it is the lead guitar sound. that being said the first recording isn't very good and I wouldn't be happy with it either.

 

[lwknives]

I don't have a separate track for the kick so I would have to re-record the drums to get it more prominent. My drummer is good enough to play along with the song and get a solid track.

Other then that my only advice would be to do a dummy master of it ask your singer what it is that he doesn't like. Can he actually specify what he's not into?
Maybe the guy just liked being in the studio!

I asked my singer what he was looking for that my mix didn't have and he said that he was more comfortable with the studio and that the sound quality we got there was better. He isn't being very specific about what he wants changed.

He did say he wanted his vocals to be more prominent, but I fixed that in the mix. I suggested re-recording the vocals but he didn't seem interested. He still hasn't heard this mix which has a high mid boost on the vocals as the only change I made. He doesn't seem to be interested in trying to make it work, he just wants to go to the studio and get the same sound we got on the other songs.

 

[lwknives]

the only thing the second recording has going for it is the lead guitar sound. that being said the first recording isn't very good and I wouldn't be happy with it either.

Are you referring to this clip, which I posted last night?


Or the one in my sig?

The one in my sig is a solo project I did last year before I joined the band I'm in now. That style of music is much harder to record and mix than rock or blues.

The song my singer wants to record in the studio is the one above. That is the one he is unhappy with.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I'll give it to you straight because I don't blow smoke up people's bottoms. I think your own recording is pretty ordinary. It's of demo quality at best but still quite poor. It's certainly not close to a level where you could get radio play with it, in my opinion. You have some ways to go for that.

If the recording you made with your band is of a similar quality I also wouldn't be satisfied with it and I'm unsurprised that your singer is unhappy. The studio recording, while superior, is still significantly inferior to what I would expect for anything other than a scratch demo.

I'd suggest that you might want to investigate other studios or alternatively just accept that the recordings you're doing at home are demos and work your way upward. I think a good start for you on that front is to start looking at your recordings as part of a spectrum. At the moment all I'm really hearing in your home recording is 'excited guitarist syndrome' where everything in your mix is taking a backseat to your guitars.

Feel free to start a thread in the Recording subforum if you want to get mix critiques. There are plenty of people there who can help. As to the issue of 'singer vs mix' it's kind of impossible to tell considering that you haven't posted the song in question here. I would suggest though that if it's in the realm of your other home recorded track and the goal is radio play your singer has just cause for concern.

I'm in agreement with the above, and with pretty much all the posts after you posted the band mix that was yours. I like the overall sound on that better than the studio tracks, but I agree with those saying it still has a ways to go before leaving the demo category. I think it's great that you're getting lots of honest opinions here, and seem open to them as opposed to defensive.

My engineer/producing/mixing days are over since I gigged way too long without earplugs :/ . I can't tweak anything anymore, and I'm sort of limited to demo quality on anything I do myself these days, but I can still hear the big picture and thought I'd offer the following. First, agreement on the kick drum... but I'd add that the snare could use a little more snap also. It's clear that you're favoring the guitars, and IMO the lead track is too in your face. I would pan it a bit, drop the volume, and experiment with some different effects to have it blend a little more comfortably into the mix. That would also bring the vocals out a bit a more.

My $.02.

Oops, almost forgot. Toontrack has a plugin called ezmix that I recently started using. It's a copout, and if it's probably better to learn to tweak all the tracks on your own, but I have to admit it kicks butt. There were times I struggled for a long time trying to get and instrument to sit well in a mix, and one click of a preset in ezmix put a huge smile on my face. You might want to take a look at it. Has helped me a lot, expecially with drum and vocal tracks.

 

[lwknives]

I'm in agreement with the above, and with pretty much all the posts after you posted the band mix that was yours. I like the overall sound on that better than the studio tracks, but I agree with those saying it still has a ways to go before leaving the demo category. I think it's great that you're getting lots of honest opinions here, and seem open to them as opposed to defensive.

My engineer/producing/mixing days are over since I gigged way too long without earplugs :/ . I can't tweak anything anymore, and I'm sort of limited to demo quality on anything I do myself these days, but I can still hear the big picture and thought I'd offer the following. First, agreement on the kick drum... but I'd add that the snare could use a little more snap also. It's clear that you're favoring the guitars, and IMO the lead track is too in your face. I would pan it a bit, drop the volume, and experiment with some different effects to have it blend a little more comfortably into the mix. That would also bring the vocals out a bit a more.

My $.02.

Oops, almost forgot. Toontrack has a plugin called ezmix that I recently started using. It's a copout, and if it's probably better to learn to tweak all the tracks on your own, but I have to admit it kicks butt. There were times I struggled for a long time trying to get and instrument to sit well in a mix, and one click of a preset in ezmix put a huge smile on my face. You might want to take a look at it. Has helped me a lot, expecially with drum and vocal tracks.

I guess I should make it clear that I don't consider my mix to be of pro quality. I don't think that our performance was pro quality either. I'm the only one in the band with experience with recording, they start getting uptight and frustrated if they have to take more than two takes. We aren't trying to "make it" we just want to get our songs out for people to listen to and gig a couple times a month.

On the mix, drums are definitely my weak point! I cant adjust the individual tracks after they are recorded and I don't have high quality drum mics. I didn't like the drum sound we got in the studio any better than the drum sound I got though. I would give another shot at recording drums but the singer doesn't seem to be interested in that.
When you say that I am favoring the guitars are you saying I'm favoring both the rhythm and lead or just the lead? Also, what am I favoring the guitar over? The entire mix? The drums? The vocals? The bass? I agree that the guitar could come down in volume and be paned a bit more, ill try that later. What kind of FX are you referring to? Comp, EQ, reverb, chorus? I generally prefer a dry guitar sound on guitars, unless the FX is part of the guitarists tone for that song.

I'm still learning the whole recording engineering thing, every time I record something I get a little bit better. I wish my band wanted to put more effort into it.

 

[bkbirge]

Toontrack has a plugin called ezmix that I recently started using. It's a copout, and if it's probably better to learn to tweak all the tracks on your own, but I have to admit it kicks butt.

To the OP, on your drum sounds you will get much better results if you guys get some new heads and tune them. If you don't know how to tune drums, look it up. A good tuning can make a set of cardboard boxes sound like cannons. Besides the player, tuning is the most important thing to do for good drum sounds, followed by the room choice, then mics & gear etc.

I would take the rest of the advice posted here with a grain of salt, a lot of it is very subjective. All the talk about levels and panning (and reverb! lol!) is slightly misleading as you don't know anything about the environment of people listening to your work. Earbuds? Well designed studio control room? You don't know. More importantly, those considerations are the icing, not the cake. The cake is your arrangement and performance.

You said you guys were rushed at the other studio because everyone was concerned about the hourly rate. Worrying about dollars flying out the window while you track/mix is a great way to move the focus off of your playing and arranging straight into the suck zone. You need to be comfortable and relaxed. If you can't get there because of money worries then you aren't ready to be in a studio.

It seems the best solution for you guys might be to spend a day tracking basic beds at a real studio with someone knowledgeable and then do all your overdubs at home where you can spend the time it takes to get it right. Then save some more money and get someone real (by that I mean experienced in your genre with commercial releases under his/her belt) to mix it for you.

The performance is the important thing to get correct, far and above any considerations of gear or tone or mix aesthetics. There are always budget concerns that will lead to tradeoffs between what you want and what you get but you need to make sure they don't overly impact your ability to capture a good performance.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I guess I should make it clear that I don't consider my mix to be of pro quality. I don't think that our performance was pro quality either. I'm the only one in the band with experience with recording, they start getting uptight and frustrated if they have to take more than two takes. We aren't trying to "make it" we just want to get our songs out for people to listen to and gig a couple times a month.

On the mix, drums are definitely my weak point! I cant adjust the individual tracks after they are recorded and I don't have high quality drum mics. I didn't like the drum sound we got in the studio any better than the drum sound I got though. I would give another shot at recording drums but the singer doesn't seem to be interested in that.
When you say that I am favoring the guitars are you saying I'm favoring both the rhythm and lead or just the lead? Also, what am I favoring the guitar over? The entire mix? The drums? The vocals? The bass? I agree that the guitar could come down in volume and be paned a bit more, ill try that later. What kind of FX are you referring to? Comp, EQ, reverb, chorus? I generally prefer a dry guitar sound on guitars, unless the FX is part of the guitarists tone for that song.

I'm still learning the whole recording engineering thing, every time I record something I get a little bit better. I wish my band wanted to put more effort into it.

Understood.

By favoring the guitars I meant that they sound the best (or most tweaked), especially in comparison to what the studio guy did. As for effects I didn't have any particular in mind. What I do is experiement, try anything and everything until I hear something that makes me say "yes!!!". The recording in the video below is all me. I don't know anything about the quality of it, cuz as already stated about 1/4 of my hearing is gone.... , for real, but I like the guitar sound. And I know I fiddled with a few effects which I don't remember. I also always double my guitar tracks. And EQ and pan them differently to open the sound up.

 

[lwknives]

To the OP, on your drum sounds you will get much better results if you guys get some new heads and tune them. If you don't know how to tune drums, look it up. A good tuning can make a set of cardboard boxes sound like cannons. Besides the player, tuning is the most important thing to do for good drum sounds, followed by the room choice, then mics & gear etc.

I would take the rest of the advice posted here with a grain of salt, a lot of it is very subjective. All the talk about levels and panning (and reverb! lol!) is slightly misleading as you don't know anything about the environment of people listening to your work. Earbuds? Well designed studio control room? You don't know. More importantly, those considerations are the icing, not the cake. The cake is your arrangement and performance.

You said you guys were rushed at the other studio because everyone was concerned about the hourly rate. Worrying about dollars flying out the window while you track/mix is a great way to move the focus off of your playing and arranging straight into the suck zone. You need to be comfortable and relaxed. If you can't get there because of money worries then you aren't ready to be in a studio.

It seems the best solution for you guys might be to spend a day tracking basic beds at a real studio with someone knowledgeable and then do all your overdubs at home where you can spend the time it takes to get it right. Then save some more money and get someone real (by that I mean experienced in your genre with commercial releases under his/her belt) to mix it for you.

The performance is the important thing to get correct, far and above any considerations of gear or tone or mix aesthetics. There are always budget concerns that will lead to tradeoffs between what you want and what you get but you need to make sure they don't overly impact your ability to capture a good performance.

I wish we could afford to have a real pro track our drums, but I don't see that working out any time soon.

 

[lwknives]

Understood.

By favoring the guitars I meant that they sound the best (or most tweaked), especially in comparison to what the studio guy did. As for effects I didn't have any particular in mind. What I do is experiement, try anything and everything until I hear something that makes me say "yes!!!". The recording in the video below is all me. I don't know anything about the quality of it, cuz as already stated about 1/4 of my hearing is gone.... , for real, but I like the guitar sound. And I know I fiddled with a few effects which I don't remember. I also always double my guitar tracks. And EQ and pan them differently to open the sound up.

Actually, I barely touched the guitars at all, all the FX were before the mics. Rhythm guitar was Mesa Dual Rec Roadster>mooer chorus>carbon copy. Double tracked paned right and left, slight High-mid boost from an external eq.

Lead was Mesa Dual Rec>Carbon Copy>close mic>room mic. No external FX at all.
Both had the built in reverb from the Mesa.

The drums, bass and vocals are where all my mixing time went.

 

[MatticusMania]

I asked my singer what he was looking for that my mix didn't have and he said that he was more comfortable with the studio and that the sound quality we got there was better. He isn't being very specific about what he wants changed.

Perhaps your singer just isnt comfortable with your recording skills and feels that someone with a studio and better equipment would be better suited?

 

[nojj]

I rarely run realtime fx on instruments.
If your not happy with it, or want to tweak something, yer stuck.
Usually run that stuff either after-the-fact, or aux send it to a different channel.

 

[lwknives]

Perhaps your singer just isnt comfortable with your recording skills and feels that someone with a studio and better equipment would be better suited?

That appears to be the case. Most of my gear is better than his gear though. Other than his interface everything I have is better or as good. I wasn't impressed with his skills as an engineer either. He pretty much stuck a SM58 on everything and put standard "cookbook" FX on it.

 

[lwknives]

I rarely run realtime fx on instruments.
If your not happy with it, or want to tweak something, yer stuck.
Usually run that stuff either after-the-fact, or aux send it to a different channel.

Yah I hear yah, I've done it both ways and prefer to use pedals, they talk to me more. Plus I don't like the sound of the GB plugins as much as my pedals.
You just have to pay attention during the tracking to make sure everything blends well.

 

[nojj]

I'm not a big fan of stomp boxes in the studio.
Work great in live situ (use 'em myself on guitar)
but in a studio environment they tend to be noisy, cause hum,
and without a direct bypass can suck tone.
I'll usually put them in the signal chain using a direct out to another channel.
If you're starting with a single-pass with everybody playing at once
(that happens often with bands unused to studio recording)
or using the fx in the amp, then it's unavoidable.
I'll generally do a zero db set throughout the signal chain and hope for the best.

I've found as a project studio owner using a lot of older gear,
it's not the gear: it's the connectors, how it's hooked up,
the signal chain,
and most importantly, the fella behind the controls.

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

This thread is why I use an 8-track tape machine and some decent mics.

 

[lwknives]

I'm not a big fan of stomp boxes in the studio.
Work great in live situ (use 'em myself on guitar)
but in a studio environment they tend to be noisy, cause hum,
and without a direct bypass can suck tone.
I'll usually put them in the signal chain using a direct out to another channel.
If you're starting with a single-pass with everybody playing at once
(that happens often with bands unused to studio recording)
or using the fx in the amp, then it's unavoidable.
I'll generally do a zero db set throughout the signal chain and hope for the best.

I've found as a project studio owner using a lot of older gear,
it's not the gear: it's the connectors, how it's hooked up,
the signal chain,
and most importantly, the fella behind the controls.

I understand the reasons behind not using boxes, in this particular recording the benefits of using them outweighed the drawbacks. I have spent a lot of time getting to know FX and amps and can generally get a good mix with pedals. In this situation the Mesa was way noisier than the pedals so I didnt have to worry about that. Also both pedals that I used were on the whole time so it didn't matter whether or not the were true bypass (they were).

 

[Joe Louvar]

So, my band is wanting to record another one of our songs. It is possible that it will end up on a local radio station so we want it to be the highest quality we can get.

Anywho, a little while ago we took an evening and recorded the song ourselves. I did all of the engineering mic set up ect. I only have a two channel interface so the drums had to be mixed to two channels. We do have a full sized mixer though and the kit was fully micked. I recorded all the guitars through a Mesa Dual Rec Roadster combo with a close mic and a room mic. I was pretty happy with the recording we got.

Here is the problem, the lead singer/rhythm gtr/BL isn't happy with the recording and he wants to go to the studio where we have recorded in the past. his opinion was based off of an incomplete mix that I had made to get the opinions of the other band members. I changed the mix but he hasn't had a chance to listen to it yet.

The thing is, I'm not happy with the recordings that we got in that studio. They are ok, but they just don't breath or have any life. You can hear all the instruments fine but there isn't anything interesting about the mix. The engineer knew how to get a basic mix but didn't seem to have a concept for being creative with it. When I suggested something that wasn't inside his "cookbook" he would look at me like I was crazy. He totally killed my guitar sound.

His studio was three small (less than 10'x10') rooms with thin foam glued to the walls. Great rooms for recording vocals and acoustic guitar, pretty lame rooms for recording loud electric guitars or drums. He had a very nice board and a great interface along with some fairly nice rack gear going into a computer with a cheap DAW. The only mics he had us using were SM87s, a kick mic that I didnt see and some overheads for the drums. All vocals and guitars got SM57s.

The only advantage his studio has to the setup we have is that he can record a large amount of tracks at the same time and I can only do two. We had a better drum kit, a WAY better room, better mics and I can spend as much time as I want on our mix without having to pay for studio time. I liked the sound we got when we recorded it ourselves better than what we have got at this studio.

So how do y'all deal with disagreements on sound? I am obviously biased because I did all the engineering but I didn't like the sound we were getting even before we did our own recording. Also, I have about three years of studio experience so its not like this is the first mix I have ever made.

Thoughts?

Don't fight over it - hire a good producer!!! - one you both like.

 

[lwknives]

This thread is why I use an 8-track tape machine and some decent mics.

I don't think that would provide a solution to any of the problems I am facing.

 

[uOpt]

FWIW, this topic also is why I chose to play bass through 19" studio gear for so long.

You get a feel for that gear and it really helps when using that same gear for something else later.

 

[lwknives]

At any rate my singer scheduled a session this Friday. I'm gona go and play my heart out and see if we can get some better sound out of this studio. Maybe my singer is right and we can do this song better.