I need to level my frets, and have a zero fret, so I figure I'd need to remove the string nut. How would I do this without breaking it?
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Removing a string nut without damaging it?
- Thread starter fourstringbliss
- Start date
To be sure an image of the nut in question would help, providing essential contextual information.
It totally would have made more sense for me to wait until I was home with the bass so I could post a picture. I'll get that done later so we have more to go on. Thanks!
Pics help but generically: score all around the nut with a razor blade or X-acto knife to prevent finish chips.
For a nut at the end of the fretboard like a Gibson I usually cover the nut and fretboard area with a cloth to help protect it, get a piece of scrap wood and hold it touching the fretboard side of the nut and give the scrap wood a sharp tap with a small hammer, I like to use the same rubber and plastic faced hammer I tap frets in with. You don’t need a dead blow and Kevin Szorbo to hit it.
For a nut in a slot, Fender style, I use small fret trimming / pulling pliers, which are end nippers with the face ground flat, and start at one end of the nut and gently start to work it up out of the slot working your way from one side to the other several times if needed. Some Fender style nuts can be thin and fragile and even with all due caution will break or someone may have fitted it too tightly in the slot so the best bet would be to have a spare blank or two handy in case.
As with so many things in building and repair I’m sure there are numerous other ways to go about it so pick the method that makes sense and you can accomplish with your available tools.
For a nut at the end of the fretboard like a Gibson I usually cover the nut and fretboard area with a cloth to help protect it, get a piece of scrap wood and hold it touching the fretboard side of the nut and give the scrap wood a sharp tap with a small hammer, I like to use the same rubber and plastic faced hammer I tap frets in with. You don’t need a dead blow and Kevin Szorbo to hit it.
For a nut in a slot, Fender style, I use small fret trimming / pulling pliers, which are end nippers with the face ground flat, and start at one end of the nut and gently start to work it up out of the slot working your way from one side to the other several times if needed. Some Fender style nuts can be thin and fragile and even with all due caution will break or someone may have fitted it too tightly in the slot so the best bet would be to have a spare blank or two handy in case.
As with so many things in building and repair I’m sure there are numerous other ways to go about it so pick the method that makes sense and you can accomplish with your available tools.
It kinda depends how it was adhered. When they use Elmers or something light you can usually just tap it. Or tape an M80 to the headstock.
You’re planning to level the zero fret along with the balance of the fingerboard? If so, don’t.
Riis
This is correct. The zero fret should not be level with the rest of the frets.
However, since the height of the zero fret sets the height at the first fret it may need to be adjusted to compensate for the new (post leveling) fret height.
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IIRC, it's a common practice to install zero fret wire which is .010" taller (...before dressing).
Riis
Here's the situation, and if you've already heard this story please forgive me. I've put a lot of work into making this bass what I want it to be, and now I adore it.
However, I can't get the action lower than 3mm at the 12th fret without buzz in the upper frets. I did the usual 3-fret groupings check with a fret rocker and came up empty. It wasn't until I checked 4-fret groupings that I found a few high spots in the upper frets. If these high spots were between two frets I'd spot level and call it good - this is not a professional level or expensive bass. But, no such luck.
It's been suggested that I level all the frets, but I think it's just the upper frets. Someone else suggested I could sand in a 12th fret fallaway, which would probably hit those frets. I really don't want to remove the nut and level all the frets if I don't absolutely need to (and the zero fret issue seems like a headache), but I for sure don't want to pay someone $200+ to do it for me.
For the sake of argument, here are some pics of the string nut:
Thanks for the help!
However, I can't get the action lower than 3mm at the 12th fret without buzz in the upper frets. I did the usual 3-fret groupings check with a fret rocker and came up empty. It wasn't until I checked 4-fret groupings that I found a few high spots in the upper frets. If these high spots were between two frets I'd spot level and call it good - this is not a professional level or expensive bass. But, no such luck.
It's been suggested that I level all the frets, but I think it's just the upper frets. Someone else suggested I could sand in a 12th fret fallaway, which would probably hit those frets. I really don't want to remove the nut and level all the frets if I don't absolutely need to (and the zero fret issue seems like a headache), but I for sure don't want to pay someone $200+ to do it for me.
For the sake of argument, here are some pics of the string nut:
Thanks for the help!
I'm not fully convinced we've ID'd the culprit and would be reluctant to start hacking on the frets. Refresh my memory: how much relief do you have on board?
BTW: it almost appears the E string is "departing" from the back-side of the zero fret.
Riis
Turnaround
Commercial User
Several things.
1. It looks as though you need to set the witness point at the zero fret. The E string seems to be forming a lazy arc over the zero fret rather than a clean break angle.
2. I disagree with having the zero fret higher than the others. If you were to place a capo at the first fret, it would then be the equivalent of a zero fret. It doesn't need to be higher than the second fret. So nor does the zero fret need to be higher than the first fret - it's just another fret. You might add a couple of thou to allow for some wear, but certainly not as much as 10 thou. A higher first zero fret will just create intonation issues in the first position.
3. To remove the nut, place a block of wood along the zero fret side of the nut and tap the block with a tack hammer toward the headstock. A light sharp tap will free the nut. If you don't want to remove the nut, use your sanding beam from side to side of the neck, keeping the beam parallel with the string path. If you are worried about scratching the inside face of the nut, put a couple of layers of masking tape on there first.
4. A fallaway in the upper frets is appropriate for an acoustic bass, not a solid body. On an acoustic bass the string tension tends to distort the top plate, pulling the neck forward and thus affecting the fingerboard extension that is attached to the body. It creates and upward angle of the fingerboard extension. A solid body bass does not have any part of the fretboard attached to the body, so this neck-to-body geometry does not affect the fretboard. No need for the fallaway compensation needed on acoustics.
5. If you are getting fret buzz in the upper frets, it's an indicator that the bridge is too low. And that raises questions about how you are doing your setups. How are you determining the amount of relief? How much relief do you have, and where on the neck are you measuring it?
1. It looks as though you need to set the witness point at the zero fret. The E string seems to be forming a lazy arc over the zero fret rather than a clean break angle.
2. I disagree with having the zero fret higher than the others. If you were to place a capo at the first fret, it would then be the equivalent of a zero fret. It doesn't need to be higher than the second fret. So nor does the zero fret need to be higher than the first fret - it's just another fret. You might add a couple of thou to allow for some wear, but certainly not as much as 10 thou. A higher first zero fret will just create intonation issues in the first position.
3. To remove the nut, place a block of wood along the zero fret side of the nut and tap the block with a tack hammer toward the headstock. A light sharp tap will free the nut. If you don't want to remove the nut, use your sanding beam from side to side of the neck, keeping the beam parallel with the string path. If you are worried about scratching the inside face of the nut, put a couple of layers of masking tape on there first.
4. A fallaway in the upper frets is appropriate for an acoustic bass, not a solid body. On an acoustic bass the string tension tends to distort the top plate, pulling the neck forward and thus affecting the fingerboard extension that is attached to the body. It creates and upward angle of the fingerboard extension. A solid body bass does not have any part of the fretboard attached to the body, so this neck-to-body geometry does not affect the fretboard. No need for the fallaway compensation needed on acoustics.
5. If you are getting fret buzz in the upper frets, it's an indicator that the bridge is too low. And that raises questions about how you are doing your setups. How are you determining the amount of relief? How much relief do you have, and where on the neck are you measuring it?
I got this from Michael Tobias as an off-shoot when discussing zero fret compensation re: Buzz Feiten. He starts with the aforementioned larger fret wire...not sure what the actual height is s/p dressing. I treat a zero fret exactly as I would a nut slot when assessing, whether it be "2 / 2" or "3 and back". I guess the bigger question is whether the zero fret on this particular bass is indeed identical to the balance of the fretboard.
Riis
Thanks for the response (and for responding to all of my posts about this).
1] I never thought to set a zero fret witness point, but that would explain why @Zooberwerx noticed the e-string departing. I'll have to set that witness point with my strings.
I'm going to skip #2 - #4 because I've finally decided to have a professional tech analyze the fret problem(s) I'm having and to fix it. I have the skills/knowledge to replace pickups, install preamps, wire pickup coil selecting switches, and swap out hardware with no issues. I think I now know just enough to spend hours ruining my frets chasing after high spots. I'd rather spend the $200 to have someone get this bass in perfect playing shape.
5] I'm an amateur at setups. I usually set the fretboard flat and lower the strings. I then raise them until most of the fret buzz is gone and adjust the truss rod to remove the rest of the buzz. I'm sure it's not the "right" way of doing it, but I can usually find a good compromise between relief and string action. I usually measure relief right around the 8th fret.
On my other bass my strings are 2mm above the 12th fret and I've got about a credit card worth of relief. On that bass I can dig in as much as I want and get no fret buzz. At this point on this white bass my strings are 3mm above the 12th fret and the relief is more than the other bass - not happy with that.
Yeah, take a closer look at your string install top-to-bottom...I've seen stuff like this introduce buzz into what otherwise should be a quasi-normal set-up.
As a favor, use your rocker and feeler gauges to see if your zero fret is actually higher. When spanning the zero and 2nd frets, I would expect to see a gap of ~.002" at the 1st.
Riis
Turnaround
Commercial User
Turnaround
Commercial User
If you want the optimum, set your straightedge to span frets 1 to 15 (or fret the string there) and measure at the mid point between those frets - that occurs at fret 7, not 8. The truss rod has no effect on the area of the neck that is fixed to the body, nor can it affect the neck beyond its anchor point (very close to the first fret).
Advanced setup techniques may diverge from the conventional way to set the neck, especially when dealing with imperfect necks, but as an amateur at setups it's best to go with convention. That says you should set the relief right first, then adjust the saddle height, then make any needed nut adjustment, followed by adjusting pickup height, followed by intonation adjustments. That is the most consistent way to achieve optimum action in an effective fashion.
I'll do that, but I don't have feeler gauges. I'm going to set the witness point with the strings and the zero fret and see how that affects things. I still have some high spots on upper frets, though.
The semi-funny thing about all of this is that I only get fret buzz when I'm playing on the 12th fret and above - which I never do. If I adopted a lighter touch I could set my strings lower, but I like digging in. I play with TI Jazz Flats, so even a 3 mm 12th fret string height doesn't give me hand fatigue. I just don't like fret buzz on my basses.
I'll re-setup the bass using those ideas. I've got a capo I'll put at the 1st fret. What should the usual amount of relief be? What is best for string height at the 12th fret?
Thanks!
Turnaround
Commercial User
There are no numbers that are optimum for everyone. But I learned from over 50 years of setup work that for a Fender-style instrument, relief close to .012" and string heights at the 12th fret of .077" on the G string to .090 on the E ( or .0965 on the B of a 5 string) gave the most satisfactory results for more than 80% of my clients (perhaps closer to 90%). But that's a general setting that works well for most of my clients. My own basses actually have less relief and less saddle height.
Go get yourself some *&^%$ feeler gauges before proceeding...make it an early Xmas gift for yourself. We're looking at .010-.014" (...in this case, I'd target .012") and that's depressing at the fret-meets-body. I've also seen the 15th suggested.
Riis
