Removing a string nut without damaging it?

[Zooberwerx]

I disagree with Mr. Tobias on a number of things.

The question posed to me: what's the difference between whether the string is perched on a zero fret or nut slot as point of departure? Don't the same clearances / compromises / compensations apply? The only component that HASN'T changed is the characteristics of a string tuned-to-pitch.

Riis

 

[fourstringbliss]

Go get yourself some *&^%$ feeler gauges before proceeding...make it an early Xmas gift for yourself. We're looking at .010-.014" (...in this case, I'd target .012") and that's depressing at the fret-meets-body. I've also seen the 15th suggested.

Riis

Would a business card work?

 

[fourstringbliss]

There are no numbers that are optimum for everyone. But I learned from over 50 years of setup work that for a Fender-style instrument, relief close to .012" and string heights at the 12th fret of .077" on the G string to .090 on the E ( or .0965 on the B of a 5 string) gave the most satisfactory results for more than 80% of my clients (perhaps closer to 90%). But that's a general setting that works well for most of my clients. My own basses actually have less relief and less saddle height.

Other than relief, which is more like a credit card rather than a business card, my setup is pretty close to that. I could lower my strings to about 2.5 mm if I lighten my touch and stay below the 12th fret. I'd like to get it lower, though, which is what sent me on the fret rocking/fret leveling journey.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Would a business card work?

No. We're dealing with tolerances of 1/1000". Don't cheap out...gauges are < $10 at most well-stocked auto stores. Need the right tools to get our bearings before commencing any remedial work.

Riis

 

[JKaftertwoxans]

Several things.

1. It looks as though you need to set the witness point at the zero fret. The E string seems to be forming a lazy arc over the zero fret rather than a clean break angle.

2. I disagree with having the zero fret higher than the others. If you were to place a capo at the first fret, it would then be the equivalent of a zero fret. It doesn't need to be higher than the second fret. So nor does the zero fret need to be higher than the first fret - it's just another fret. You might add a couple of thou to allow for some wear, but certainly not as much as 10 thou. A higher first zero fret will just create intonation issues in the first position.

3. To remove the nut, place a block of wood along the zero fret side of the nut and tap the block with a tack hammer toward the headstock. A light sharp tap will free the nut. If you don't want to remove the nut, use your sanding beam from side to side of the neck, keeping the beam parallel with the string path. If you are worried about scratching the inside face of the nut, put a couple of layers of masking tape on there first.

4. A fallaway in the upper frets is appropriate for an acoustic bass, not a solid body. On an acoustic bass the string tension tends to distort the top plate, pulling the neck forward and thus affecting the fingerboard extension that is attached to the body. It creates and upward angle of the fingerboard extension. A solid body bass does not have any part of the fretboard attached to the body, so this neck-to-body geometry does not affect the fretboard. No need for the fallaway compensation needed on acoustics.

5. If you are getting fret buzz in the upper frets, it's an indicator that the bridge is too low. And that raises questions about how you are doing your setups. How are you determining the amount of relief? How much relief do you have, and where on the neck are you measuring it?

I'm fairly certain theres a video up somewhere of someone touring the schecter custom shop making their own guitar at the factory and its stated that they purposely add a bit of fallaway at the factory. There's absolutely no downsides to it if you don't go overboard with it and its great insurance against any potential tongue rise in the future. Just because something isnt traditionally done does not automatically make it invalid and wrong.

 

[fourstringbliss]

I'm fairly certain theres a video up somewhere of someone touring the schecter custom shop making their own guitar at the factory and its stated that they purposely add a bit of fallaway at the factory. There's absolutely no downsides to it if you don't go overboard with it and its great insurance against any potential tongue rise in the future. Just because something isnt traditionally done does not automatically make it invalid and wrong.

True. It would probably solve my problem as well, with the high spots being in the upper frets.

 

[JKaftertwoxans]

Found it, and I forgot to add to the OP, adding fallaway is one thing, but tackling a complete fret level as your first dabble into fretwork is courting disaster. The worse that can happen if you mess up the fallaway is having 12th frets just a tad lower than they should be, for the most part your bass will play fine the transition might feel a little strange if you muck it up and go too far. On the contrary if you mess up the the whole neck fret level you're going to be left feeling an insurmountable amount of regret and feel like chucking the thing out of a window, the bungle potential icreases drastically.

 

[fourstringbliss]

Found it, and I forgot to add to the OP, adding fallaway is one thing, but tackling a complete fret level as your first dabble into fretwork is courting disaster. The worse that can happen if you mess up the fallaway is having 12th frets just a tad lower than they should be, for the most part your bass will play fine the transition might feel a little strange if you muck it up and go too far. On the contrary if you mess up the the whole neck fret level you're going to be left feeling an insurmountable amount of regret and feel like chucking the thing out of a window, the bungle potential icreases drastically.

Yeah, and honestly I've bungled in modding basses too many times. I really like this bass and I've put too much money into making it what I want it to be to try doing this myself. If I make a mistake wiring a switch at worst I need to buy a new $3 switch. If I mess up here it's a refret.

I'll just save the money to get a tech to fix this.

Thanks!

 

[Turnaround]

Other than relief, which is more like a credit card rather than a business card.....

A credit card is about .03" thick. That's more than twice the amount usually recommended for relief.

 

[Turnaround]

Just because something isnt traditionally done does not automatically make it invalid and wrong.

Nor does the fact that someone does it make it right. Dressing down the upper frets is something I would do if and when it needs to be done. Doing it beforehand is not pre-emptive in that it doesn't prevent a kink from happening. It may not do any harm to dress in some fallaway, but until there is a kink it doesn't do any good either.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Yeah, and honestly I've bungled in modding basses too many times. I really like this bass and I've put too much money into making it what I want it to be to try doing this myself. If I make a mistake wiring a switch at worst I need to buy a new $3 switch. If I mess up here it's a refret.

I'll just save the money to get a tech to fix this.

Thanks!

"Do no harm!" - medical credo. I would at least do a full repeat set-up as I'm not quite convinced that's been optimized given the dialogue (...sketchy witness points, no feeler gauges to validate adjustments, etc.). I hand-off the more extensive tasks like fret work to someone who's done hundreds of them. Now is NOT the time to test my aptitude.

Riis

 

[fourstringbliss]

A credit card is about .03" thick. That's more than twice the amount usually recommended for relief.

I changed relief, capoed at the 1st and fretted at the 15th until a business card was all that could fit under. I'll have to play standing today, but seated i was playing buzz-free below the 12th with the strings at 3mm at the 12th. Still getting buzz above the 12th and still can't get it lower than 3mm, so I'll take it to a local shop.

Thanks again for all the help!