Renegotiated Pay

[ChrisB2]

I booked Band A to play a gig for 750.

Band A has now split and a couple of the original members have formed Band B.

The newly formed/named Band B are offering to play the gig in place of the non existent Band A

Why does Band B expect to be paid the same as Band A? They are not the band I booked and being new I have no idea if they are any good or will bring a following.

Until Band B get out there and perform, who's gonna know if they're worth 250 let alone 750.

This is a great point in this saga that many either have missed, or at least under appreciated.

I have an antique hammer for sale. Originally purchased in 1832 by my great great grandaddy.

What's that you say? Yes the head was replaced. But only twice. And the handle you ask? Well, the original was wood and didn't last. We tried a few more wooden handles over the years, then finally switched to titanium. This one seems to be good for the long haul, you'll really like it.

By the way, even though it's such an antique, I'm only asking $500. Mkay?? Huh?? Lol

 

[Core Creek]

My band recently played a campground and while we didnt have a "contract" per se that needed to be signed, we did work out the pay and they W9'd us. Just about everywhere else outside of a big city with established music scene, or corporate event, you are absolutely not going to get a contract. You wont get W9'd either. Maybe a check occasionally but most of the time its cash. You suggest it and within minutes the venues facebook page says..."different band this sat night!"

For the OP, i dont think you are in the wrong at all regarding being mad at a band member making the decision. I would push to make a 3 hour gig tho. Had a band member take the tip money (a significant amount...it was a private party and we were shocked at how much was in our tip jar) and give it to a band that played first. No good reason for it either. Not...hey they are struggling or out of work or health issues...just, wanted the dopamine hit from his benevolence because he knew a couple of them. Tip jar was ours and there was hardly anyone there when they played so it wasnt a pooled tip jar. They played their full set hourse before we played. Anyway, I was so mad he made the decision on his own. I wouldnt feel bad about telling him you arent doing it if, for nothing else, send him a message not to do that again.

A band I play with recently had a campground gig cancelled on us - apparently the campground called someone to confirm the date and they said the band was no longer together and the campground booked someone else. When out BL called we were told. Luckily we found out two weeks before the gig - not just as we’re pulling up.

Our suspicion is a former member got the call and instead of letting the BL know just let it blow up in our faces.

I guess a contract might have avoided this - or at least would have had our BL as the BL as our contact person. But I doubt they do contracts.

 

[Space Pickle]

i have dramatized this situation in picture form

 

[LBS-bass]

You're deliberately misrepresenting what I said, or have poor reading comprehension.

I never made any assumptions, I'm literally stating that we don't know and should NOT make assumptions.

Not quite. There are implied assumptions in just about everything that’s been said here. By both of us. It’s ok to suggest that something seems likely while also admitting you don’t know the full truth.

but it is a lovely morning here and I’m not dying on any dumb hill here today. Hope your day is as pleasant as I expect mine will be!

 

[Marko 1]

Not quite. There are implied assumptions...

Oh good Lord...

Yes, please go have a nice day.

I've actually got a gig tonight, so I guess that'll be fun.

 

[bcbassman]

Is this the first time your band has played for this client? If so why should the name change or personnel change make any difference to them- they have not heard you live. You do have the right to substitute players due to illness or broken bones right?
Nothing prevents you from calling Debbie and re-negotiating after the band was advised of the lower rate.
You can require that the band gets longer breaks, cut to 3 sets, although my band would prefer to play once we have moved and set-up our gear. You can also put out a tip jar and a Venmo contact so that the public can contribute to the band. The most important this is- Don't lose the gig!
If they like your band, there is always next year.

 

[Egg250]

Is this the first time your band has played for this client? If so why should the name change or personnel change make any difference to them- they have not heard you live. You do have the right to substitute players due to illness or broken bones right?
Nothing prevents you from calling Debbie and re-negotiating after the band was advised of the lower rate.
You can require that the band gets longer breaks, cut to 3 sets, although my band would prefer to play once we have moved and set-up our gear. You can also put out a tip jar and a Venmo contact so that the public can contribute to the band. The most important this is- Don't lose the gig!
If they like your band, there is always next year.

Yes, me and the guitarist played here last year under thd old band name, not over labor day weekend. So, some personnel changes and a name change.

I'm not desperate to play and I'm not interested in taking it between the cheeks to play here. Any further shenanigans from the venue, I'm pulling my own plug. The band can do it, but they'll be looking for a sub.

Tip jar definitely being set out, but the crowd was pretty tight last year.

If they like us and want to book further shows, there will be some sort of paper trail and shenanigans will be poo pooed upon.

 

[LBS-bass]

I can’t give you financials for the campground, of course. I guess your crystal ball is better than mine?

Why should we bother to discuss anything here? I mean, you're not really allowed to say anything unless you are omniscient about every nuance of the situation, which fits the definition of nobody here.

So I'm suddenly dealing with a senior epileptic dog who's recovering from a seizure and may or may not die in the next few hours. If he weren't old as dirt I'd be rushing to the ER with him, but he's blind and failing in multiple ways at the age of 14 so we're letting him go if it's his time. Depending on whether he recovers well from this (well for him, anyway) or not, I might be calling in the mobile euth vet.

This is not aimed at you, Rich, just tagging your post because we're all here talking about crystal balls and contracts and assumptions, and maybe other things bring this into perspective. I was hoping to have a good day but now I just want the rest of you to have a better day than I'm having

 

[Marko 1]

So I'm suddenly dealing with a senior epileptic dog who's recovering from a seizure and may or may not die in the next few hours. If he weren't old as dirt I'd be rushing to the ER with him, but he's blind and failing in multiple ways at the age of 14 so we're letting him go if it's his time. Depending on whether he recovers well from this (well for him, anyway) or not, I might be calling in the mobile euth vet.

Sorry to hear that...

whatever's the best thing all around, I hope that happens.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Why should we bother to discuss anything here? I mean, you're not really allowed to say anything unless you are omniscient about every nuance of the situation, which fits the definition of nobody here.

So I'm suddenly dealing with a senior epileptic dog who's recovering from a seizure and may or may not die in the next few hours. If he weren't old as dirt I'd be rushing to the ER with him, but he's blind and failing in multiple ways at the age of 14 so we're letting him go if it's his time. Depending on whether he recovers well from this (well for him, anyway) or not, I might be calling in the mobile euth vet.

This is not aimed at you, Rich, just tagging your post because we're all here talking about crystal balls and contracts and assumptions, and maybe other things bring this into perspective. I was hoping to have a good day but now I just want the rest of you to have a better day than I'm having

Hugs. We just had this recently with our cat. It's tough but it was the best for her. Sweet girl, I hope we gave her a good life. I hope for the best outcome for you.

 

[Egg250]

I might be calling in the mobile euth vet.

I'm sorry you have to go through this.

 

[51PRI]

Quote: “Guitarist agrees and then tells us about it.”


Let’s be clear.

The Venue and the Band made a verbal agreement to perform for 4 Hours for $750.

Later, the venue contacted the Guitarist and said they could only afford $650. The Guitarist agreed.

So, the Guitarist has agreed to perform for 4 hours for $650. Its sounds like a good deal for the Guitarist. $650 just for him, all on his own.

Without consulting the Band that’s all that has been agreed to. Make that clear to the Guitarist and the venue as soon as possible, so that everyone knows.

If the venue wants the complete Band to turn up, they agreed to price for that and should honour the commitments they make. If they seek to not do so, or simply don’t, they are not honourable.


Why would anyone want to have anything to do with people like that?

If there’s one thing that to my cost, I have learnt through working in the field of music.

It’s that there are people who are plausible but highly manipulative. To get you involved they will appear to agree and acquiesce to everything right from the start.

Once you are committed, your anticipations and expectations along with those drawn in by advertisement etc. But if it suits them, they can suddenly introduce a change. A change they always knew at the beginning, you would not agree to. They get to where they want by salami slices. It is a modus operandi.


You either comfort and reward their manipulative behaviour by giving them what they want.

Or create discomfort and disarray in their midst by demonstrating to them that you will only fulfil the agreement that both parties have actually agreed to. Which is a legal necessary in contractual law, even verbal agreements.


Let the Guitarist who agreed to $650, have a good pay day, after all, he agreed to it.

And let the venue know that’s what they will be getting for their money. One guitarist for 4 hours.


I hope he’s exceptionally good!

I have to disagree. When the guitarist accepted the new terms he was speaking, I'm sure he thought, for the whole band. If the band wants to throw him under the bus over a mistake of $100 then don't expect there to be a band any more. Keep the agreement the guitar player accepted, get your pay, make sure the guitar player talks to the whole band in the future before accapting ANY agreement, and move on.

The campground can't afford $750 but can afford $650? Nah, they're just jerking you around for a few more bucks for themselves. And then when it comes time to be paid, they'll have another excuse to cut your pay more....

Could be. There was a place around here that got a reputation for trying to cut the pay at the end of the night.

Contracts get pushed a lot around here, but my experience at the level of a $750 band doing four hours is that's not the kind of venue that typically cares to sign a written contract....

True. We hardly ever have a written contract.

 

[Egg250]

If the band wants to throw him under the bus over a mistake of $100 then don't expect there to be a band any more.

The issue with either party isn't the $100. It is the disrespect he showed to the band by not talking to us before accepting the renegotiated terms on our behalf. I guarantee I will only tolerate that once.

 

[Kubicki Fan]

When negotiating the people doing it have to have the authority to negotiate. If you negotiate make sure you are talking to someone invested with authority. Debbie should have ascertained that she was talking to the right person, otherwise, the whole discussion is moot. I think Debbie knows this and any attempt to hold your band's feet to the fire is merely manipulation.

$100 is a small price one fool has to pay to learn a lesson, in case you decide to play.

 

[LBS-bass]

Thanks, everyone. Didn't mean to drag this off topic. He's recovering OK from his seizure but he doesn't seem to know where he is and he will stand but not walk. I'm at peace with knowing it's time. I have a pending gig tomorrow so we will likely schedule them to come out on Sunday .

OK, that's all on that. Proceed with whatever it was we were doing before.

 

[MrLenny1]

It's a poopy business.
IMHO All gigs should be 3 hours max for what
they offer.

 

[gln1955]

I'm not desperate to play and I'm not interested in taking it between the cheeks to play here. Any further shenanigans from the venue, I'm pulling my own plug. The band can do it, but they'll be looking for a sub.

The situation kinda sucks and your guitarist did you no favors, but if you bail last minute over some other slight, that's unprofessional and you probably deserve to be fired. Just play the gig and set boundaries for going forward.

 

[ChrisB2]

Proceed with whatever it was we were doing before.

 

[Egg250]

The situation kinda sucks and your guitarist did you no favors, but if you bail last minute over some other slight, that's unprofessional and you probably deserve to be fired. Just play the gig and set boundaries for going forward.

Playing my own devil's advocate here. The venue acts unprofessionally and decides to change the agreed upon terms less than a month before the show. Should the band fire the venue? The guitarist acts unprofessionally as well. Should we have a band meeting and fire the guitarist? I've accepted these new terms and decided to proceed with the show. If either one of those continues to act unprofessionally, you are saying I should be fired because I don't want to put up with that? I guess so. Truth be told, I won't have to be fired because I will choose to not do business with unprofessional people, in other words, I'll leave on my own. When I committed to the show date, I made a commitment based on the agreed upon terms. Any changes to those terms risks changes to my commitment. Acceptance of the old "bait and switch" does not make one "professional". It is not a slight, it is outright disrespect. On setting boundaries, I assumed the boundaries were already in place. My mistake for making that assumption but those boundaries will be clearly defined.

I'm involved in 2 other projects and the level of professionalism is beyond compare. In a project I started with a drummer I met in a different project, we talk about everything. The band doesn't commit to anything unless everyone agrees. Any changes need to be discussed and agreed upon again. The third project I'm in is very similar and the BL passes information as things develop. Clear communication and expectations. It's really not a big ask.

 

[SharpCat]

First, I am not a gigging musician--so feel free to ignore my POV...

I have been in a lot of situations where I was part of a team, and there should be a sense of cohesion in the team, at least to outside viewers. I guarantee the guitarist did not think "I'm agreeing to the $650 deal--the rest of the band is going to FREAK! HaHaHA!" I'm sure he thought that what he agreed to--the reduced pay-- was what the band would want to do if they had been there, had time to discuss, etc. Give him the benefit of the doubt that he thought what he did was the right thing to do. If that's not what the band would actually want, take it up with him and come to whatever consensus for future behavior makes sense to the involved. IOW, live and learn.

Meanwhile, the guitarist presented himself as able to negotiate to the venue. The pay difference is not impossible (regardless of the questionable morals of the venue pulling that move) so the TEAM needs to present that united front, and do the task the team agreed to do.