Double Bass Rev Solo Vs. Bass Max

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the usefulness of sound clips, but that's fine. I don't find them definitive because of all the variables, but i do find them very informative in a direct sort of way, in the sense of pictures and thousands of words.

About the two pickups in question, a search on this site for reviews of both pickups will yield stories of people who liked them and people who didn't. If I could save searches for both and and link to them I would (so no one could cry commercial foul), but since this isn't possible let me simply suggest that all interested parties feel free to search for reviews or posts sound clips for either or both. More information is good, especially for new DB players who are weighing how to spend their hard earned $$$.

 

[Martin Beer]

Well, we're at am impasse if you're not really comparing to the actual device discussed here. Indeed, the fitting of the RS 2 is finicky and it isn't the right choice for all basses and players.

I have, however used other K&K pickups (the Mandolin Twin, Big Twin and Pure guitar pickups) and have found them to be well made and good sounding examples of their type, so I feel that your dislike of the Bass Max is more likely to reflect your personal taste rather than an impassive judgement of its quality, especially if you cannot define which aspects of its design and construction you consider to be of low quality.
I would be wary of attempts to define a majority "norm" opinion and discount anything outside of that. That's a judgement we should make for ourselves, not one which can be made for us by those who consider themselves authorities. The dynamics of internet forums can skew things too.

 

[drurb]

I have, however used other K&K pickups (the Mandolin Twin, Big Twin and Pure guitar pickups) and have found them to be well made and good sounding examples of their type, so I feel that your dislike of the Bass Max is more likely to reflect your personal taste rather than an impassive judgement of its quality, especially if you cannot define which aspects of its design and construction you consider to be of low quality.
I would be wary of attempts to define a majority "norm" opinion and discount anything outside of that. That's a judgement we should make for ourselves, not one which can be made for us by those who consider themselves authorities. The dynamics of internet forums can skew things too.

Oh, here we go again. Of course my dislike reflects my judgment. I assure you that it's quite impassive. As to the sound of the BassMax, as I said, I find it to be midrange-heavy and to make a DB sound akin to a BG. Others have expressed the same. As a matter of fact, that characteristic can be measured and displayed. No, I'm not going to do that for you. Decades of professional experience have enabled me to listen and identify frequency response anomalies quite well. The ones characteristic of the BassMax are constant. Put it on just about any bass and you get the same general response properties. Maybe some people prefer mid-range heavy sound like that which doesn't reproduce faithfully the sound of the instrument. Faithful reproduction of the sound of the instrument is a common shared criterion.

Now to design and construction. I don't know how much experience you have pouring over the specs of piezo elements. I do have some experience and I can tell you that the elements chosen for the BassMax are hardly optimal in terms of the goal of faithful reproduction of the bass. They were apparently chosen to produce high output, which they do quite well.

I own a BassMax and used it for years. As I understand, you have no experience with it. The materials used to load the element are basically the foam rubber and covering that's compressed into the bridge wing. From an engineering standpoint, that's a suboptimal approach in terms of achieving a reliably good sound because the very materials used to damp the element are varied as a function of the size of the bridge-wing opening into which it's compressed. On the other hand, the design of the BassMax makes it quite versatile and easy to install and remove. It can be readily transferred from bass to bass. There's a price to pay for that convenience. Furthermore, the foam, etc. on the BassMax is quite prone to deterioration and tearing.

The situation is very different, in principle, with the Rev Solo. Because the case is solid, the damping/loading materials stay fixed while the case thickness is adjusted for the opening. The amount that the case thickness can/should be changed is quite small as per the manufactuer's instructions. If those would have to be exceeded, then it's the bridge wing that's modified. While that's a more difficult process, it pays dividends in terms of the quality of the sound. That's by design! That design, optimized for it's sound, makes it far less able to transfer from instrument to instrument.

I don't use the Rev Solo. I don't use the BassMax. I certainly don't sell either of them. I have, however, spent years using each of them.

I did not advocate defining a norm and discounting opinions outside of it. That's a gross oversimplification and perversion of the position that I thought I articulated clearly. Perhaps not. What I said was that when opinions fly in the face of those that would result from conformance to what is reasonably considered to be a roughly shared set of standards, then those opinions aren't very informative. The example I gave was the driver who finds the performance of a Yugo to be superior to that of a BMW 5 series. That's extreme-- it flies in the face of what's understood to be desirable. It's hardly informative for choosing a vehicle.

Usually, we operate well inside the extremes. Someone people prefer the Full Circle, someone prefer the Realist, some prefer the Rev Solo, some prefer the Shadow, some prefer a DPA microphone. Each of those reputable devices brings strengths and weaknesses to the table. I have never taken any strong positions about them. I have never (that I can recall) commented on different preferences among them.

The situation is similar when we discuss basses. There is a shared disdain for CCBs. When people have posted about how wonderful they are and how they are better than other well-known entry-level instruments (we'll leave out upper-level instruments), few here are willing to say, "Well, that's just his opinion." and leave it there. Sure, an individual expressing such an opinion is entitled to that opinion. See this post for what I think of that situation.

I'm curious-- have you used the K&K pre-amps that are sold with the K&K devices you mentioned? Did you like them?

 

[Martin Beer]

I can see that different design decisions have been made, but the use of a softer outer material does have the benefit of making the fitting process less exacting. I have heard fewer accounts of the loading materials of the Bass Max becoming compressed than I have of the Realist failing under pressure or the Full Circle connections breaking, so while this would be considered a flaw it seems to be par for the course that each pickup has its compromises. If a working player like Chris found it quite usable, I would tend to presume that it is.
I'm not certain that faithful reproduction of the acoustic sound is always the foremost goal, otherwise how does one explain the continuing popularity of the Underwood (or indeed bridge wing pickups in any form)? There are times when a coloured sound can be just the thing for slotting yourself into a dense mix or being heard over diners or dancers. I can't say that I found the RS II to be especially natural, but it's a sound which can be worked with.
Is the CCB analogy really valid? The CCBs have an exceptionally high failure rate, often cannot be set up to a typical working players standards and on close inspection are a shoddily built imitation of a proper instrument. If I was going to place any pickups in that category, it would be the generic £6 piezo I have in my drawer, which actually sounds passable wedged in a bridge wing, but the construction is so flimsy and the cable and connections so poor that I would not consider using it.
Regarding K&K's preamps, I had the older model Power Pack. It was clearly built down to a price, but proved reliable enough in use. It worked well with the mandolin and guitar pickups, but I didn't particularly care for the sound of it as a bass preamp - for that I've either plugged straight into the amp (where a 1M or higher impedance is available) or used a simple FET buffer preamp I put together.

 

[drurb]

I can see that different design decisions have been made, but the use of a softer outer material does have the benefit of making the fitting process less exacting. I have heard fewer accounts of the loading materials of the Bass Max becoming compressed than I have of the Realist failing under pressure or the Full Circle connections breaking, so while this would be considered a flaw it seems to be par for the course that each pickup has its compromises. If a working player like Chris found it quite usable, I would tend to presume that it is.
I'm not certain that faithful reproduction of the acoustic sound is always the foremost goal, otherwise how does one explain the continuing popularity of the Underwood (or indeed bridge wing pickups in any form)? There are times when a coloured sound can be just the thing for slotting yourself into a dense mix or being heard over diners or dancers. I can't say that I found the RS II to be especially natural, but it's a sound which can be worked with.
Is the CCB analogy really valid? The CCBs have an exceptionally high failure rate, often cannot be set up to a typical working players standards and on close inspection are a shoddily built imitation of a proper instrument. If I was going to place any pickups in that category, it would be the generic £6 piezo I have in my drawer, which actually sounds passable wedged in a bridge wing, but the construction is so flimsy and the cable and connections so poor that I would not consider using it.
Regarding K&K's preamps, I had the older model Power Pack. It was clearly built down to a price, but proved reliable enough in use. It worked well with the mandolin and guitar pickups, but I didn't particularly care for the sound of it as a bass preamp - for that I've either plugged straight into the amp (where a 1M or higher impedance is available) or used a simple FET buffer preamp I put together.

The BassMax materials always become compressed. That's how it's designed to be fit into the bridge wing. Yes, each pickup has its compromises. That was exactly my point. The BassMax design seems heavily weighted toward convenience and low price at the expense of refined sound.

I agree that faithful reproduction in terms of the spectral profile at the end of the chain is not always desirable and I've posted that explicitly. That's what tone controls are for. I do believe, however, that best practice is to start with as neutral a palatte as possible. So, faithful reproduction at the pickup is a reasonable goal. My reference to CCBs was to make a point about opinions. Actually, I believe, for the reasons I stated, the design and construction of the BassMax leave much to be desired, although I wouldn't go so far as to call it the CCB of pickups.

 

[Martin Beer]

The BassMax materials always become compressed. That's how it's designed to be fit into the bridge wing. Yes, each pickup has its compromises. That was exactly my point.

For a forum which seems to have a large number of Bass Max users, I can only find two accounts of this happening, and some players who used it for years still point towards it as an option worth considering. So while I can see that the materials losing their resilience and becoming compressed might be an issue (especially if the fit is overly tight), I am not seeing anything that points towards it being something which "always" happens.
Anyhow, this is getting silly now, so I'm going to bow out.

 

[drurb]

For a forum which seems to have a large number of Bass Max users, I can only find two accounts of this happening, and some players who used it for years still point towards it as an option worth considering. So while I can see that the materials losing their resilience and becoming compressed might be an issue (especially if the fit is overly tight), I am not seeing anything that points towards it being something which "always" happens.
Anyhow, this is getting silly now, so I'm going to bow out.

It's not that the materials lose their resilience and become compressed. It's that compression is a necessary part of the installation. So, yes, they always are being compressed. I identified that as a drawback in the design after you asked me to "define which aspects of its design and construction you consider to be of low quality."

...The materials used to load the element are basically the foam rubber and covering that's compressed into the bridge wing. From an engineering standpoint, that's a suboptimal approach in terms of achieving a reliably good sound because the very materials used to damp the element are varied as a function of the size of the bridge-wing opening into which it's compressed.

...The BassMax materials always become compressed. That's how it's designed to be fit into the bridge wing.

I've now explained it three times.

 

[Martin Beer]

A drawback can only be considered as such if it impacts on the function of the device. Since I can find only one user other than yourself who has mentioned this as a problem, I don't see anything to indicate this is a major flaw with the device. I fully understand what you are saying, comprehension is not the issue here. I have the strong impression that this has nothing to do with bass pickups and everything to do with some sort of compulsion to be Right on the internet.
Reply as you wish, I shall be familiarising myself with the ignore function.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm thinking that over time, the specs of a material used in a product may change from when it was originally installed through compression, age, etc,. Then, that may be considered a design flaw if compared to other products that don't have those characteristics. So, my Underwood is 26 years old and still works exactly as it did when I got it. My Stat B needs some upkeep as it seems that the cork used for fit shrinks over time, and the preamps give out after a few years. Another example are the numerous reports of failing Realist pickups after a few years of use. Design flaw?

Now I still prefer the sound of the Stat B in most situations and I deal with its more finicky installation when needed because it's worth it to me. The Underwood has been more consistent over the years, but it doesn't see as much use.

Is the covering or damping material of the BassMax susceptible to age/use related changes? (I've never used one and don't think I've heard one)

 

[drurb]

...The BassMax materials always become compressed. That's how it's designed to be fit into the bridge wing

And, you've explained it wrongly each time.

I was letting this go, hoping the thread would die with disinterest, but you persist in sharing information that is patently wrong (and disrespected me by bringing my name into it from another thread where the discussion was nixed), so I now am compelled to correct some of your misstatements.

Yes, the material inside the pickup (between the two transducers) is under minimal compression; but it should be no more than the amount of compression that a pickup like the Rev Solo, Underwood, Schatten, or any other wing pickup is under -- enough to hold it in place when properly fitted. When it's installed as directed, the person installing it almost always has to "open up" the bridge wing to accommodate it. If you're not widening the opening in the wing, you're doing it wrong.

The manner in which you describe it being compressed to the point of crushing it, and "varied as a function of the size of the bridge-wing opening into which it's compressed" indicates that you assume that it's designed specifically to be "smooshy" enough to fit into varied opening sizes.

That is simply not true.

This would also account for your calling the outer covering "fragile" and susceptible to damage. That isn't actually so, unless you're jamming it into an opening that's too small for it to properly fit into.

The pickup has a thickness of about 1/4". Just about everyone following along with this thread can go measure the opening in their bridge wing; I'd wager that more than half -- and probably most -- of those wing openings, if they've never been modified, measure about 1/8" at the apex of the curl. The material in the Bass Max is NOT designed to compress so you can ram fit it into that 1/8" space! You rather need to open the wing with filing/sanding, creating a flat surface on both sides to mate to the pickup, to mount it properly. So sayeth [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (albeit rather tersely).

The material in the center of the original Bass Max pickup was actually cork; they revised it quite a few years ago and started using a synthetic material with a similar (but more durable) density and firmness. But it's not designed to "smoosh." It's designed (and these are K&K's specific words, here) to be "a buffering layer in between" which "ensures even transmission of all frequencies from both sides of the bridge wing."

Now, you can argue all you want about how successful or not they may be with that design goal -- THAT is where opinion comes into play, and yours is as valid as anyone's -- but your matter-of-fact description of the purpose and design (and crude-ness) is unfair and unfounded. And to me, it indicates rather clearly that (if you installed the Bass Max with the notions that you appear to have) you haven't given it a fair shake, because you've never actually installed it as directed. A pickup installed poorly will sound pretty bad every time.


On a side note, you said, "The BassMax design seems heavily weighted toward convenience and low price at the expense of refined sound." That sort of strongly worded statement, as if it were an agreed-upon fact, makes it seem like you were over Dieter's shoulders some 16 years ago listening in to his R&D sessions. Unless you were there, you have absolutely zero inside knowledge of the process by which they chose the transducers they did. And AFAIK you've never opened up a Bass Max and looked at the naked transducers, either - so you wouldn't be able to pick them out of a police lineup. As far as you could know, it's identical to the transducer used by Upton in their RS pickup, from the same source - who knows?

I have used a BassMax, I own a BassMax, I've used it correctly. You have twisted what I said to serve your own ends and, perhaps, your pocket. The damping material does get more compressed than does that inside the solid case of the Rev Solo. I never talked about ramming it into a 1/8" space.

When I use the word "seems" in a statement that hardly qualifiescas strongly worded. That doesn't even begin to imply that it's agreed upon. More tantruming and twisting on your part.

I assure you that there's quite a difference between the piezo element used in the Rev Solo and the ones used in the BassMax.

It's hardly disrespectful to point out in a post that it involves a response to you. Disrespectful? Nonsense!

Actually, this entire dustup was iniated by your inappropriate post. A person mentioned that you recommended the BassMax and the Platinum Pro. I said that I find the BassMax to be a crude pickup and recommended the Rev Solo. I gave my opinion. You decided, along with your obvious conflict that you had to counter that OPINION.

I do think the BassMax is a crude device. I've been saying that for years. It doesn't come close to capturing the spectral nuances that are captured by any of a number of superior devices including the Rev Solo, the Realist, the Full Circle, and on and on.

 

[drurb]

A drawback can only be considered as such if it impacts on the function of the device. Since I can find only one user other than yourself who has mentioned this as a problem, I don't see anything to indicate this is a major flaw with the device. I fully understand what you are saying, comprehension is not the issue here. I have the strong impression that this has nothing to do with bass pickups and everything to do with some sort of compulsion to be Right on the internet.
Reply as you wish, I shall be familiarising myself with the ignore function.

Ignore all you want. I'm guessing you'll actually read this. As for being right, it's not about the internet. You have shown that you post arguments without reading what I wrote. Seems you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. At least I actually am concerned about what's right.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

I have used a BassMax, I own a BassMax, I've used it correctly. You have twisted what I said to serve your own ends and, perhaps, your pocket.

Your implication here, as elsewhere, is clear -- and wrong yet again. Perhaps we should investigate why someone who lives about an hour from Upton is SO VOCAL about the pickup they make, and seems to know SO MUCH about the proprietary design and internals of it, even though he professes not to use it. Perhaps you can "assure me" that there isn't something surreptitious going on there?

Never mind, forget it. We're done here. I'm finished kowtowing to your bully pulpit.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

So to summarize: there are users who like and defend both pickups, and other users who dislike both pickups. I'll leave it to anyone reading this thread to do your own homework and draw your own conclusions.