Rig stereotyping

[Infernal Affair]

Sometimes I wonder whether the gear we own is because we're so influenced by what's around us. Take for example in the "What amp should I get for (insert form of music here)?" threads a lot of the responses tend to be gear that's mentioned because (insert famous person) from (insert famous band) uses them. It makes me wonder, that if some dude who becomes famous starts using entirely different gear that's initially deemed unsuitable for that style of music, but makes some really good music out of it? I think we'd see lots of people getting swayed by that.

Obviously we let our ears do the judging, but often I'll come to the assumption that (insert rig here) sounds great or terrible depending on the musician, without taking into consideration the bass they're playing, what effects they're using, etc. There's that old adage that, "A great musician can make even the most terrible of equipment sound good." Obviously skill comes into play, but I sometimes wonder whether we think a rig is that good BECAUSE the person behind it is good, or whether it's pointless to keep searching for the "perfect" sounding gear because once something is good enough, and you become really famous using it, someone's going to claim how great it is because you can get a good sound out of it.

This isn't really an epiphany or anything. I came to this conclusion a long time ago when I would see upteenth band play through the typical Ampeg "rock" setup. A lot of people love the Ampeg sound, but I've always been ambivalent because there's many times that I've heard it sound terrible. Yet when someone asks the simple question "What kind of rig would be great for rock?" then lots of people say some sort of Ampeg SVT and 810. Personally I think there's a lot of factors to consider for the situation, like what instruments are in the band, how the drummer plays, whether they're going through the PA, their playing style, the bass being used, and that's just scraping the surface.

Just pondering something that doesn't have a clear cut answer.

 

[Scalestein]

I think in the music world, just like in the real world, there is a large amount of 'passive peer pressure'. If I'm looking for a new rig and the last 10 guys I saw with rigs had Ampeg rigs I would probably be biased towards Ampeg. If there was some other brand at the store that I had never heard of, but sounded better, I would probably still buy the Ampeg because I would be slightly afraid of the other brand being 'wrong' in the eyes of the rest of the community.

Ampeg has a leg up because they have been around so long. This means they have lots of people playing their stuff and saying it is the best.

I think it comes down to people worrying what others think. They will buy brand X because they know that player Y plays it and player Y knows what he is talking about, therefore the buyer knows what he is talking about. They won't take a chance on brand Z because someone might say, 'brand z? you don't know you're doing', and the buyer won't have a group to point to to say, 'no brand z is cool, look at group P'

 

[Standalone]

I got my eden metro as an impulse buy , and then my xlt210 based on my experience with the metro and shop recommendation. I hadn't ever really seen eden around at the time ('99).

I'm happy with my sound, but being on TB is certainly an excercise in exposure to high levels of peer pressure.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Why do you think companies give big band endorsements?

 

[ntimkovich]

i think about this question a lot, especially because of forums like TB where written recommendations influence how people spend their cash.

everyone here would state, quite accurately, that how the amp sounds to you is what you should base your purchase on, not on what other people tell you. however, after years of reading forums like this and playing uncountable gigs, there's a lot to be said for the influence of forums and what other people in the community recommend.

when buying a new piece of gear, you can't judge reliability, but someone else who's played for years through that rig can give you an accurate picture. also, the way an amp sounds at the store is often very different from how it sounds on stage or in the studio. again, other's recommendations are positive in this respect.

i don't think we can deny the influence of other people's gear and brand names, etc., but it's all a careful game where you need to weigh it all. the most important thing, of course, is how it sounds to you, but leaning on other people's choices isn't such a bad thing sometimes.

my thoughts,
nick

 

[scotch]

When I first started playing, I had this mindset from the get-go. I a) didn't want what everybody else was playing (Fender, Ampeg) and b) didn't care if others thought I had the "right gear" for a gig.

The first time a played through an all tube Ampeg with the 8x10, I sounded horrible! On the flip side, when someone told me to turn down my mid EQ to fit in better with the Jazz band, I told them to get over it.

Fast-forward 10+ years & I realized that a lot of the "stereotypes" I had fought against turned out to be rock-solid advice! I didn't know how to properly use an SVT when I was 18, nor did I understand how my gnarly mid-boost tone was killing the groove with 8 horn players trying to be heard. I believe there is a reason that particular pieces of equipment are identified with a certain sound beyond just simple marketing.

All that said, it is great to see a musician using a piece of gear in a whole new way. It's killer to see Rocco Prestia using an 8x10 in a "jazz-ish" context or seeing an arena rock bassist sporting a B-15 flip top! I still hold onto some of my iconoclastic ideals, but I've also come to accept some "standard operating procedures" as well.

Great thread idea. A nice change from "look at my...." (which I'm plenty guilty of)

 

[Infernal Affair]

I didn't mean it to be a rag on Ampeg gear as I like their sound and even use the SVT emulation on my Sansamp programmable BDDI. I just don't think it's as clear cut as rock=Ampeg or GK. For all I know the guys who didn't sound good to me could've been the fault of the house PA and engineer. Or it could have been that they played boring music.

 

[scotch]

I didn't mean it to be a rag on Ampeg gear as I like their sound and even use the SVT emulation on my Sansamp programmable BDDI. I just don't think it's as clear cut as rock=Ampeg or GK. For all I know the guys who didn't sound good to me could've been the fault of the house PA and engineer. Or it could have been that they played boring music.

Absolutely!

As we all know, there are no absolutes!

Wait...

 

[Cristo]

Thus the power of marketing, peer pressure, fashion, and crowd mentality.

Sure there are differences among all the types of equipment...but in most cases not ones that end up making any differences to the listening audiences, IMO.

Think of all the music that was recorded and performed using gear that many would now consider "substandard"...

 

[smogg]

Thus the power of marketing, peer pressure, fashion, and crowd mentality.

Sure there are differences among all the types of equipment...but in most cases not ones that end up making any differences to the listening audiences, IMO.

Think of all the music that was recorded and performed using gear that many would now consider "substandard"...

+1 ..... I have been through so much gear over the years and really the differances never really affected the audiences....it has always been a personal thing.
Now my desires lead to lighter more compact set ups only because of age. But utlimately, I trust MY ears when picking equipment and still love it narley & loud

 

[Infernal Affair]

I think lighter amps are going to be the next big thing. Technology is at a point now where you can go pretty light without sacrificing tone, and the only thing that'd inhibit that direction is people thinking from the outset "Well, it's not big so therefore it must be lacking." I'm young, and I bought a Markbass Littlemark II recently. I really like what I hear, and the fact that it's so easy to carry is a definite influence in me. My rig before was a pre/power setup and two Aguilar GS112s. I hate having to make multiple trips and I hate going up/down stairs at both home and where I play. Now it's much more manageable. I can lift heavy amps no problem, but why would I want to if I could get the tone I want in something lighter?

Cristo: You're right on the ball. A lot of early recordings were done on equipment that's now considered substandard, and I don't think that's taken anything away from my enjoyment. I know we like to wonder if Jamerson had a Lakland or Sadowsky, but I think two things would happen with that.

1) He'd still sound like Jamerson no matter what he was playing.
2) Everyone would prefer Jamerson to use his P bass.

I don't think anyone even bothers to think what amp equipment he used live and in recordings, but it definitely affects his sound.

 

[Bryan316]

It doesn't matter what recommendations you get, nor how many people recommend the same product. Don't buy NUTHIN' unless you can play it yourself in person. If you can't, better be able to return it if you don't like it. If they give you the "No returns for special orders" routine, find a better store.

 

[KingOfAmps]

I think lighter amps are going to be the next big thing. Technology is at a point now where you can go pretty light without sacrificing tone, and the only thing that'd inhibit that direction is people thinking from the outset "Well, it's not big so therefore it must be lacking."

Don't you mean again? The next big thing again. Because lighter amps have been a recurring (if you could call it that) theme for decades now.

As for technology having accomplished what you said without sacrificing tone I must disagree. I concede it's subjective but there is, IMO, a transformer sound that provides a more commanding tone sans the metallic "tinge" present in more "advanced" circuits. The bigger and heavier the better.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I play what makes me happy and learned a long time ago that when I see someone playing live, a big part of their sound that I'll never purchase is the player.

I use cabs most people never heard of and they have no labels on the front. I use an amp that people don't even believe is an amp. If I'm going to impress anyone it should be with my performance, not my gear. I get my gear to impress me

 

[AAdropout]

I cant wait to be famous then everyone will want to play Dr. Bass cabs, I will endorse Dr. Bass, be in NAMM boths, have Marc make me what ever I want, and have thousands of young fansplaying Dr. Basses.

The bad thing is when Marc's company gets to big he will have to outsource the maunfacturing, he will be a millionaire, but his company will end up like all the Edens, Trace Elliots, SWRs, Ampegs, etc. bought out by CBS, and all the handmade vintage Dr. Bass stuff will be worth a lot. But I think Marc would scuttle his business and name before he would sellout and retired to Florida with billions.

 

[Infernal Affair]

Don't you mean again? The next big thing again. Because lighter amps have been a recurring (if you could call it that) theme for decades now.

As for technology having accomplished what you said without sacrificing tone I must disagree. I concede it's subjective but there is, IMO, a transformer sound that provides a more commanding tone sans the metallic "tinge" present in more "advanced" circuits. The bigger and heavier the better.

I know that lighter amps (sub 15lb for the sake of argument) have been around, but I meant "next big thing" as in much bigger than they have been. The price point on amps like the Genz-Benz Neo-Pak, the iAmp, the Markbass heads etc. is a contributing factor. Sure a Walter Woods would be neat, but I never had the budget for one. With the current competitive pricing it's no wonder Markbass heads are flying off the Guitar Center shelves. Technology has advanced to the point where it's a lot cheaper to work with smaller components. The biggest hurdles won't be tone, but convincing a very traditional market that this stuff can be quite good. To bring this back on topic, that's where you get artist endorsements to show folks young and old that "if they play it, then maybe I should, too." I don't necessarily agree with that tactic, but I know that it works.

The whole tone debate is subjective, and I agree with you that it won't sound entirely the same. But it's the same argument carried over when solid state amps arrived. A lot of people still prefer tubes (I think they're splendid!), but many people like the tone of solid state amps or think it's negligible enough to not matter.

I hope you're not serious about that "heavier the better" statement, because there are heavy amps out there that are straight out turds.

I play what makes me happy and learned a long time ago that when I see someone playing live, a big part of their sound that I'll never purchase is the player.

Yeah. That's what I feel, too.

 

[luknfur]

FWIW:

Somebody had to play whatever rig to whatever music first. Different rigs sound different and tend to fall into patterned applications based on what has worked for others. Which is not to say they’re limited to that application or that other setups couldn’t achieve the same results. For those looking for that tone for that application, it's a way to narrow the search.

A skilled musician may not be as limited by inferior equipment as a mediocre player but he’s still limited. At any rate, he’s highly unlikely to have any tolerance for it. If you’re a mediocre bass player and can hit a clean, correct note in time; at least with a decent rig you can sound decent in a band setting by sticking to music you’re capable of playing.

 

[knarleybass]

There is truth in "Gear Stereotyping" as I recall hearing stories about engineers and producers being annoyed if the bass player showed up with any other bass than the "Fender Bass". They knew how that bass sounded and how to properly record it. I don't completely agree with this but it's the way things are.
Recently I played on a friend's Metal CD, I showed up with my amp, Alembic Preamp, QSC Amp, Schroeder Cabinets. The engineer took one look at it and said nope, we are going to mic up my SVT cabinet and you will be playing through an Orange amp. I wasn't going to argue, I am not the artist. The tone was good and it worked really well in the context of the music we were recording, it wasn't "my" sound nor would it be something that I would go for but it did work.
I personally beleve that once you get into the more pro line levels of amps and basses there really is not bad gear out there, it's how you use it, and what you are using it for. I chose my QSC amp because it was light and put out a lot of power, I didn't go out and try every amp out there, I selected my Alembic preamp because it reminded me of my Demeter pre amp, but it was one rack space and had a good DI. I purchased the Demeter becuse I had the chance to go to the factory and buy it for a low price. The cabinets were a different story, I went through a few brands to get to the Schroeders. Overall, I don't think I am one of those guys that can just pick up any bass and any amp and sound amazing. But, I have an idea in my head of what my bass should sound like and that is what I go for, do I look at what other bass player whom I adore and respect play? Of course I do and I do take that into consideration. But mainly I use what I think is right for me. I want to be able to go out there and take chances with the notes I play and the sound I use, I know it sometimes pisses off the guys in the band but also sometimes they are singing my praises. I am not claiming to be Mr Original (never done it before in entire history of the bass) guy here, I just want the lattitude to do what I see fit when it comes to the bass.

 

[KingOfAmps]

I hope you're not serious about that "heavier the better" statement, because there are heavy amps out there that are straight out turds.

It's kinda my own guiding philosophy after paying attention for so long. That, by-and-large, a heavier amp will sound better because typically it'll have transformers and the bigger they are, the heavier etc.

"Lighter" amps I find tend to sound hollower and lack the underlying umph I can't live without. Doesn't matter if it's all tube, hybrid or pure SS.

The biggest hurdles won't be tone, but convincing a very traditional market that this stuff can be quite good.

Those charged with doing the convincing will not have to jump over any hurdles more than one inch tall. Nearly the whole bass world is falling all over themselves to "upgrade, update, modernize, and lighten" their rig. Coupled with the cheaper intrinsic value usually associated with lighter amplification very little marketing BS is required to pull most players right over the edge.

Meanwhile the demand value of the heavy stuff will continue to soar...

 

[anonymous_111514]

it's always such a funny situation when I see a poor bassist lugging in an ampeg coffin cab and head to a show. why would anyone put themselves through it to play these medium sized gigs? I love being able to roll my GK neo 212 and still get just as good if not better tone.