Rig stereotyping

[Standalone]

It's kinda my own guiding philosophy after paying attention for so long. That, by-and-large, a heavier amp will sound better because typically it'll have transformers and the bigger they are, the heavier etc.

"Lighter" amps I find tend to sound hollower and lack the underlying umph I can't live without. Doesn't matter if it's all tube, hybrid or pure SS.
Those charged with doing the convincing will not have to jump over any hurdles more than one inch tall. Nearly the whole bass world is falling all over themselves to "upgrade, update, modernize, and lighten" their rig. Coupled with the cheaper intrinsic value usually associated with lighter amplification very little marketing BS is required to pull most players right over the edge.

Meanwhile the demand value of the heavy stuff will continue to soar...

I like my heavy old Ibanez for the same reason. Well... not transformers.... but ash, big headstock and tuners, and brass saddles seem to be solid in feel and beefy in tone. Could be all in my head, though!

 

[KingOfAmps]

it's always such a funny situation when I see a poor bassist lugging in an ampeg coffin cab and head to a show. why would anyone put themselves through it to play these medium sized gigs? I love being able to roll my GK neo 212 and still get just as good if not better tone.

Yeah I know. Here's an even funnier (is that a word?) situation. When I see those poor bassists who have the efficient, upgraded gear-of-the-month playing their azz off. I mean their really into it. The face. The full on rocking out. Everything.

And you can't hear a thing. Or feel it. At all. Just drums. And guitard.

Their like bass mimes. Or something.

 

[scotch]

"With the current competitive pricing it's no wonder Markbass heads are flying off the Guitar Center shelves."

It's funny how this started with a frustration with marketing.

It's no surprise that MarkBass amps are flying off shelves considering the blitzkrieg of marketing they have been implementing. I have nothing against their products (other than the Stryper - inspired aesthetics ) but you have to admit they are saturating the market with publicity. Every bass-related publication that I've picked up for the last year has been plastered with MarkBass ads. Every guitar center seems to have put MarkBass front & center in their showrooms. Shure, they do price the stuff in order to move, but chances are you've already become interested in them before you ever saw the price or heard the sound.

Kudos to MarkBass for effectively winning people over without ever having gigged with the stuff! They even had the foresite to put a rep on Talkbass to monitor the buzz & interact with their customers. (to his credit, PeterMurray does respect the spirit of these boards very well, by the way)

Whether or not Light-Weight is the newest, hottest trend - it will remain to be seen how long the buzz lasts. Probably about as long as the colorful, glossy ads last. To their credit, many of the ultra-light makers (EA, AI, etc.) have carved out a good niche for themselves.

I have a feeling that back-breaking rigs will always have a strong place in the market. Of course, lighter more efficient amps will always have a following. If I'm still gigging when I'm 45, maybe I'll settle down with a "Yellow & Black - Pack"!

To each their own. I like trying everything at least once. You never know what will inspire you or provide a new solution to a gear issue. I do think that many of the "alternatives" to the "classics" mentioned above are employing the same marketing techniques as everone else. If a company does well enough, you'll start seeing more & more artist endorsements from them. Business is business.

Buy what works for you. I love when I pull out my $300 Ibanez at a big country show & see the sideways glances! Nothing gives me more satisfaction than playing that thing through a single 15" combo while the next guy polishes up his Warrior 7 string & leans against his dual boutique 4x10's. Of course, it is possible that I'm the one that sounds like crap....

 

[Soulfinger]

I'm with the KingofAmps---I just don't get all the people on this board talking about their ultralight rigs with 1x10 and 1x12 cabs. I don't know how these people are heard!

I play in a rock band, and we're loud, but not ridiculously loud. We're playing typical bar gigs, and I have to bring at least my big heavy Mesa 2x15 just to get heard, if not a 2x10 or even 4x10 on top of it!

Then people make the argument: if you're playing that loud, you should just have a big PA with subs. If so, then what's the point of expensive cabs? You're going to go direct, so the sound of your speakers isn't a factor anyway. The only thing you should be spending money on is a preamp!

 

[unclejam]

if its behringer it sucks


i hate that one

heres another if you playy bass you must own a ampeg
i really detest ampeg

i say up with the behringers and down with fenders ampegs

 

[Brad Johnson]

"With the current competitive pricing it's no wonder Markbass heads are flying off the Guitar Center shelves."

It's funny how this started with a frustration with marketing.

It's no surprise that MarkBass amps are flying off shelves considering the blitzkrieg of marketing they have been implementing. I have nothing against their products (other than the Stryper - inspired aesthetics ) but you have to admit they are saturating the market with publicity. Every bass-related publication that I've picked up for the last year has been plastered with MarkBass ads. Every guitar center seems to have put MarkBass front & center in their showrooms. Shure, they do price the stuff in order to move, but chances are you've already become interested in them before you ever saw the price or heard the sound.

Kudos to MarkBass for effectively winning people over without ever having gigged with the stuff! They even had the foresite to put a rep on Talkbass to monitor the buzz & interact with their customers. (to his credit, PeterMurray does respect the spirit of these boards very well, by the way)

Whether or not Light-Weight is the newest, hottest trend - it will remain to be seen how long the buzz lasts. Probably about as long as the colorful, glossy ads last. To their credit, many of the ultra-light makers (EA, AI, etc.) have carved out a good niche for themselves.

I have a feeling that back-breaking rigs will always have a strong place in the market. Of course, lighter more efficient amps will always have a following. If I'm still gigging when I'm 45, maybe I'll settle down with a "Yellow & Black - Pack"!

To each their own. I like trying everything at least once. You never know what will inspire you or provide a new solution to a gear issue. I do think that many of the "alternatives" to the "classics" mentioned above are employing the same marketing techniques as everone else. If a company does well enough, you'll start seeing more & more artist endorsements from them. Business is business.

Buy what works for you. I love when I pull out my $300 Ibanez at a big country show & see the sideways glances! Nothing gives me more satisfaction than playing that thing through a single 15" combo while the next guy polishes up his Warrior 7 string & leans against his dual boutique 4x10's. Of course, it is possible that I'm the one that sounds like crap....

So Markbass is advertising more than other brands? Are those brands that advertise more experiencing the same brisk sales? Flying off the shelves too? By your logic the answer has to be "yes".

It couldn't be that the products are just good and people like them and they have excellent word of mouth.


Nah... must be the advertising.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm with the KingofAmps---I just don't get all the people on this board talking about their ultralight rigs with 1x10 and 1x12 cabs. I don't know how these people are heard!

I play in a rock band, and we're loud, but not ridiculously loud. We're playing typical bar gigs, and I have to bring at least my big heavy Mesa 2x15 just to get heard, if not a 2x10 or even 4x10 on top of it!

Then people make the argument: if you're playing that loud, you should just have a big PA with subs. If so, then what's the point of expensive cabs? You're going to go direct, so the sound of your speakers isn't a factor anyway. The only thing you should be spending money on is a preamp!

The point of those expensive cabs is sound QUALITY. Going to a PA doesn't mean you won't still have a stage rig... did you forget that?


As far as rig size, Kevin Brubaker plays in some loud bands and he's currently using a Markbass SD800 head driving a Mesa Boogie single 12 cab and a Bag End S15. That's all... and he gets louder than he did with his 410 cabs. And deeper, punchier and clearer.

He probably needs bigger stuff though... looks more "Rock & Roll" to some folks.


For me, in the larger venues, bringing a stage rig that sounds great TO ME and running direct to the PA to sound great TO THE AUDIENCE is the best of both worlds. Sounds like you think it's either/or. Small to medium gigs I don't even bother with PA support.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thus the power of marketing, peer pressure, fashion, and crowd mentality.

Sure there are differences among all the types of equipment...but in most cases not ones that end up making any differences to the listening audiences, IMO.

Still one of the lamest things people say IMO... "The audience doesn't know the difference". So gear used should be based on the lowest common denominator?

I buy my gear to please ME and make my job easier. Chances are if I like it the audience will too. Using gear because it's good enough for drunks at a bar? Go for it!



Good gear, the right gear, depends entirely what YOU want. So why do people put down what works for others? Deep down they probably know.

And news flash... in many cases the audience does know the difference between great sound, good sound and okay sound. They also know the difference between an inspired performance and phoning it in.

Think of all the music that was recorded and performed using gear that many would now consider "substandard"...

Now think about how much of that was them playing live, with no PA.

 

[scotch]

So Markbass is advertising more than other brands? I'd say MarkBass is advertising as much as any established brand, yes. I'd also conjecture that they are using print media much more effectively than most start-ups.Are those brands that advertise more experiencing the same brisk sales? Flying off the shelves too? By your logic the answer has to be "yes". I don't have any concrete data, but I see as many if not more new products being used from Ampeg, GK, Mesa, etc., so, well, yeah.

It couldn't be that the products are just good and people like them and they have excellent word of mouth.
It sure could! To reiterate, I don't mean to disparage MarkBass at all! I'm glad there is a new player in the game & I especially dig that they are Italian! I think a lot of companies could learn a lot from their marketing prowess. I've read a lot about distribution problems on these boards, but those problems could very well be attributable to the dealer in question.

I do find it interesting that people become annoyed by older companies continuing with the same business practices while MarkBass is already showing themselves so capable of utilizing the same strategies.

Maybe I'm getting off track on this thread. I digress....

Also I appreciate your calling me out in a friendly manner. I can get a bit windy & narrow!

 

[scotch]

"And news flash... in many cases the audience does know the difference between great sound, good sound and okay sound. They also know the difference between an inspired performance and phoning it in."

+100! At least the listeners that matter most can tell.

 

[The Penguin]

Sometimes I wonder whether the gear we own is because we're so influenced by what's around us. Take for example in the "What amp should I get for (insert form of music here)?" threads a lot of the responses tend to be gear that's mentioned because (insert famous person) from (insert famous band) uses them. It makes me wonder, that if some dude who becomes famous starts using entirely different gear that's initially deemed unsuitable for that style of music, but makes some really good music out of it? I think we'd see lots of people getting swayed by that.

Obviously we let our ears do the judging, but often I'll come to the assumption that (insert rig here) sounds great or terrible depending on the musician, without taking into consideration the bass they're playing, what effects they're using, etc. There's that old adage that, "A great musician can make even the most terrible of equipment sound good." Obviously skill comes into play, but I sometimes wonder whether we think a rig is that good BECAUSE the person behind it is good, or whether it's pointless to keep searching for the "perfect" sounding gear because once something is good enough, and you become really famous using it, someone's going to claim how great it is because you can get a good sound out of it.

This isn't really an epiphany or anything. I came to this conclusion a long time ago when I would see upteenth band play through the typical Ampeg "rock" setup. A lot of people love the Ampeg sound, but I've always been ambivalent because there's many times that I've heard it sound terrible. Yet when someone asks the simple question "What kind of rig would be great for rock?" then lots of people say some sort of Ampeg SVT and 810. Personally I think there's a lot of factors to consider for the situation, like what instruments are in the band, how the drummer plays, whether they're going through the PA, their playing style, the bass being used, and that's just scraping the surface.

Just pondering something that doesn't have a clear cut answer.

Good post

If you ever get a chance to look at the budget of a large musical company compare the amounts spent on R&D with advertising. That should give an idea of what they think is most important.

To add a tangent to your post I sometimes find testimonials insulting to the artist, the implication that without a certain company loyalty they couldn't do what they do seems silly and tends to elevate the importance of gear over talent. A concept very appealing to marketers

 

[Kenny Allyn]

So Markbass is advertising more than other brands? Are those brands that advertise more experiencing the same brisk sales? Flying off the shelves too? By your logic the answer has to be "yes".

It couldn't be that the products are just good and people like them and they have excellent word of mouth.


Nah... must be the advertising.

Well said ...

I go for "old skool" tone and vibe ... everybody around here knows that, it should be easy to see in my profile.

I was old skool all the way ... Bassmans and fliptops to SVTs, don't compromise the sound ...


My MB LMII powering the little EA VL-208 cab is THE best sounding rig I have ever played through, can you hear it?

I play with two guitar players both using tube combos and a loud drummer ... I'm on the snare side, both guitar players are on the other, the outside guitar player hears every note I play (with none coming thru the monitors). Out front with a minor ghost signal to our mains (seriously not much)the sound is rich full and punchy with lots of projection!

... must be the advertising

 

[The Penguin]

bass mimes. Or something.

Time for a Youtube break, Helmutt Hattler on bass

 

[Brad Johnson]

So Markbass is advertising more than other brands? I'd say MarkBass is advertising as much as any established brand, yes. I'd also conjecture that they are using print media much more effectively than most start-ups.Are those brands that advertise more experiencing the same brisk sales? Flying off the shelves too? By your logic the answer has to be "yes". I don't have any concrete data, but I see as many if not more new products being used from Ampeg, GK, Mesa, etc., so, well, yeah.

It couldn't be that the products are just good and people like them and they have excellent word of mouth.
It sure could! To reiterate, I don't mean to disparage MarkBass at all! I'm glad there is a new player in the game & I especially dig that they are Italian! I think a lot of companies could learn a lot from their marketing prowess. I've read a lot about distribution problems on these boards, but those problems could very well be attributable to the dealer in question.

I do find it interesting that people become annoyed by older companies continuing with the same business practices while MarkBass is already showing themselves so capable of utilizing the same strategies.

Maybe I'm getting off track on this thread. I digress....

Also I appreciate your calling me out in a friendly manner. I can get a bit windy & narrow!

And the same to you, sir

I got the impression you were basically saying: "no wonder, look at all of the ads". IMO it's way more than ads.

Ads don't sell products to this degree. If they didn't perform they'd be returned or showing up on the used market. Based on my experience with my amp I seriously doubt this line will fall prey to the dreaded "Next Best Thing Syndrome" we perpetually see here at TB: Big hype, everyone must have, the newness wears off and they end up in a solid stream to the classifieds. It's going to take one heck of an amp to unseat mine.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Good post

If you ever get a chance to look at the budget of a large musical company compare the amounts spent on R&D with advertising. That should give an idea of what they think is most important.

To add a tangent to your post I sometimes find testimonials insulting to the artist, the implication that without a certain company loyalty they couldn't do what they do seems silly and tends to elevate the importance of gear over talent. A concept very appealing to marketers

And that, for better or worse, is what makes a lot of stuff fly off the shelves.

That's the consumers' fault IMO for not getting educated.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well said ...

I go for "old skool" tone and vibe ... everybody around here knows that, it should be easy to see in my profile.

I was old skool all the way ... Bassmans and fliptops to SVTs, don't compromise the sound ...


My MB LMII powering the little EA VL-208 cab is THE best sounding rig I have ever played through, can you hear it?

I play with two guitar players both using tube combos and a loud drummer ... I'm on the snare side, both guitar players are on the other, the outside guitar player hears every note I play (with none coming thru the monitors). Out front with a minor ghost signal to our mains (seriously not much)the sound is rich full and punchy with lots of projection!

... must be the advertising

Well said indeed.

 

[Infernal Affair]

I'm with the KingofAmps---I just don't get all the people on this board talking about their ultralight rigs with 1x10 and 1x12 cabs. I don't know how these people are heard!

I play in a rock band, and we're loud, but not ridiculously loud. We're playing typical bar gigs, and I have to bring at least my big heavy Mesa 2x15 just to get heard, if not a 2x10 or even 4x10 on top of it!

Then people make the argument: if you're playing that loud, you should just have a big PA with subs. If so, then what's the point of expensive cabs? You're going to go direct, so the sound of your speakers isn't a factor anyway. The only thing you should be spending money on is a preamp!

Last I checked King of Amps and I were discussing light heads, not cabs, though I'm assuming it was just a rant that wasn't really directed towards me. However, if you look at cab technology, it's going in that direction as well with all the hubbub about neos, which allow for lighter cabs. You also have stuff like the Shroeders which experiment with driver placement to cut down the overall size of the cab without losing volume. I never said anything about cutting down the size of cabs. Moving air is important. And I agree with you about cutting through. I don't play with any PA support, and I use two 112s, which is the equivalent of a 212 obviously. They're plenty loud. I wouldn't mind having a 410 around as well.

As for the whole "listeners can tell" thing, it's true to an extent. But most audiences aren't going to know or care whether there's a low-mid hump or a mid scoop on a cab, slight frequency differences, whether something's "warm" or "sterile," etc. You know, the things that we care about. I think that's what the dude means when he says, "Sure there are differences among all the types of equipment...but in most cases not ones that end up making any differences to the listening audiences, IMO." They mostly care how the band sounds as a whole: if the bass is too boomy, the guitars too loud, whether one instrument is too dominant, whether the high freqs hurt their ears, etc. That what I agree with. This is even moreso with people who don't play instruments.

Anyway, where were we again?

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's kinda my own guiding philosophy after paying attention for so long. That, by-and-large, a heavier amp will sound better because typically it'll have transformers and the bigger they are, the heavier etc.

Fortunately "typically" isn't an absolute.

"Lighter" amps I find tend to sound hollower and lack the underlying umph I can't live without. Doesn't matter if it's all tube, hybrid or pure SS.
Those charged with doing the convincing will not have to jump over any hurdles more than one inch tall. Nearly the whole bass world is falling all over themselves to "upgrade, update, modernize, and lighten" their rig. Coupled with the cheaper intrinsic value usually associated with lighter amplification very little marketing BS is required to pull most players right over the edge.

Except lighter usually isn't cheaper.

Meanwhile the demand value of the heavy stuff will continue to soar...

As will these...
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[The Penguin]

Here's a Wikipedia "fact". Just for fun.

The advertising industry is large and growing. In the United States alone in 2005, spending on advertising reached $144.32 billion, reported TNS Media Intelligence. That same year, according to a report titled Global Entertainment and Media Outlook: 2006-2010 issued by global accounting firm PricewaterhouseCoopers, worldwide advertising spending was $385 billion. The accounting firm's report projected worldwide advertisement spending to exceed half-a-trillion dollars by 2010

 

[BurningSkies]

Huh. I have a LMII as well and don't attend industry conventions, read bass magazines or hear any generated hype. I bought mine on the comments of other players and the research I did myself.

The head replaced a Mesa 400+ and I have to say that for my needs it's a much improved situation for me. I was endlessly tweaking knobs on the Mesa and could never quite get what I wanted out of it over the two years I owned it. I find the LMII sounds pretty great to me without any tweaking and when I do want to adjust my sound it takes very little guessing or knob turning to get what I want.

I'm not really much for hype or image or player endorsements anyway. My favorite players aren't name players nor do they seem to be tied down to any specific gear.

I personally want low and loud and clean, but warm. To this end I use two very different cabs. My loud and clean and very 'hearable' is provided by a Schroeder 1212. My Low deep room filling comes from a Bergantino HT115. The 40hz knob on the LMII is just what I need to push the right kind of lows for my gig.

I don't know about media hype or gear stereotypes. Just use what works for you.