Double Bass Right hand pizz technique and string crossings

[djc03006]

Hi,

While working on a couple of Monk tunes recently (Monk's Dream and Little Rootie Tootie), I've had difficulty playing the heads/variations of the heads. In both tunes, there are 5 note triplets with upward string crossings.

The issue is not getting a good pluck on some of the notes - for example, grazing over the 3rd note in the 5 note sequence. If I only try to play the first 3 notes in the sequence, I'm not missing any notes. If I play the first 4 notes, not perfect but still pretty good. If I try to play all 5 notes, I will often miss one or more of the notes.

So I've been slowing the tempo down, building up from 3 to 4 to 5 notes, working on the right hand technique on open strings, etc. I think these things will help if I am consistent.

But just wondering from anyone who may have had a similar experience, things you may have encountered or done to work through these issues. Thanks

 

[peteswanson91]

Zimmerman bowing book is great to work out of (obviously stringent crossings would be for pizz rather than arco)... also, take one bar that you are having trouble with and invent an etude (or improv) based on this particular crossing

 

[Wasnex]

Hi,

While working on a couple of Monk tunes recently (Monk's Dream and Little Rootie Tootie), I've had difficulty playing the heads/variations of the heads. In both tunes, there are 5 note triplets with upward string crossings.

The issue is not getting a good pluck on some of the notes - for example, grazing over the 3rd note in the 5 note sequence. If I only try to play the first 3 notes in the sequence, I'm not missing any notes. If I play the first 4 notes, not perfect but still pretty good. If I try to play all 5 notes, I will often miss one or more of the notes.

So I've been slowing the tempo down, building up from 3 to 4 to 5 notes, working on the right hand technique on open strings, etc. I think these things will help if I am consistent.

But just wondering from anyone who may have had a similar experience, things you may have encountered or done to work through these issues. Thanks

Which pizz technique(s) are you using? Normally I pluck with both fingers, because it's really too taxing to use the fingers independently all the time. But with super fast stuff, sometime I use the fingers independently more like a bass guitarists. This second technique can be especially important with string crossings.

Here is a video that breaks pizz technique down into four possible techniques.

 

[sean_on_bass]

This may be of interest to you!

 

[MikeDavis]

At the risk of stating the obvious, I’d suggest experimenting with hammer-ons, pull-offs, and different fingering approaches. In my experience when building up the tempo sometimes I’ll reach a point where I have to re-evaluate my approach because what worked at a slower tempo simply won’t work when getting up to performance tempo.

 

[Don Kasper]

For Monk's Dream...(in C) - Isolate the first 4 notes of the melody. It is important to start on "2" in the RH, as this longer finger has a better chance of making the jump from the A string up to the G string in a (very) short time.
#1 below - RH starts on "2" then "1" followed by "2", followed by "1".
#2 below - RH starts on "2", then "1" followed by "2" on the open G string, then a LH "Hammer On" the A natural (don't pluck the A natural - just finger the A natural with your LH while the G is still ringing.)
#3 below - is the basic RH (ascending) pattern as a practice Loop - just get your RH fingers used to the motion of covering 3 strings in 3 notes. Not Easy. Start SLOW... Build up speed later.
I always find it helpful to isolate a VERY SMALL ACTUAL Melodic fragment when working out RH Pizz (or Arco) challenges. Good for you for working on Actual Music!
Hope this helps.
Thanks.

 

[djc03006]

This may be of interest to you!

Thanks, I ran across that video a while ago. Might be time to revisit

 

[djc03006]

Which pizz technique(s) are you using? Normally I pluck with both fingers, because it's really too taxing to use the fingers independently all the time. But with super fast stuff, sometime I use the fingers independently more like a bass guitarists. This second technique can be especially important with string crossings.

Here is a video that breaks pizz technique down into four possible techniques.

Thanks, I had seen this video from John before. I typically use the two finger alternating approach

 

[djc03006]

For Monk's Dream...(in C) - Isolate the first 4 notes of the melody. It is important to start on "2" in the RH, as this longer finger has a better chance of making the jump from the A string up to the G string in a (very) short time.
#1 below - RH starts on "2" then "1" followed by "2", followed by "1".
#2 below - RH starts on "2", then "1" followed by "2" on the open G string, then a LH "Hammer On" the A natural (don't pluck the A natural - just finger the A natural with your LH while the G is still ringing.)
#3 below - is the basic RH (ascending) pattern as a practice Loop - just get your RH fingers used to the motion of covering 3 strings in 3 notes. Not Easy. Start SLOW... Build up speed later.
I always find it helpful to isolate a VERY SMALL ACTUAL Melodic fragment when working out RH Pizz (or Arco) challenges. Good for you for working on Actual Music!
Hope this helps.
Thanks.
View attachment 3998150

That is a great breakdown, thank you! I should consider using more Hammer ons. There is a variation on the melody with the saxophone solo starting right after the head in which he plays a pick up starting with the B on the a string. That presents to me an even more challenging fingering.

 

[djc03006]

Zimmerman bowing book is great to work out of (obviously stringent crossings would be for pizz rather than arco)... also, take one bar that you are having trouble with and invent an etude (or improv) based on this particular crossing

Thanks, I do have that book and have seen others reference that for right hand technique so I will probably revisit that. I like the idea of making up variations as well.

 

[djc03006]

Hi,

While working on a couple of Monk tunes recently (Monk's Dream and Little Rootie Tootie), I've had difficulty playing the heads/variations of the heads. In both tunes, there are 5 note triplets with upward string crossings.

The issue is not getting a good pluck on some of the notes - for example, grazing over the 3rd note in the 5 note sequence. If I only try to play the first 3 notes in the sequence, I'm not missing any notes. If I play the first 4 notes, not perfect but still pretty good. If I try to play all 5 notes, I will often miss one or more of the notes.

So I've been slowing the tempo down, building up from 3 to 4 to 5 notes, working on the right hand technique on open strings, etc. I think these things will help if I am consistent.

But just wondering from anyone who may have had a similar experience, things you may have encountered or done to work through these issues. Thanks

Hopefully I can work through his "hitch" by taking it slow and steady.

 

[Jim Dombrowski]

Besides thinking about what sequence of fingerings to use, you may also need to consider your right hand and arm position over the strings and where is your thumb during all of this.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Question that has been bugging me lately. How do you all handle index/middle alternating pizz when crossing? Do you strictly stick to the i/m alternation or are there instances where you might do something like two middle fingers in a row with a string crossing between each middle finger attack. I've discovered i have a habit of doing that when string crossing from a say the D string to the A string. Pluck D string with the middle finger, it then comes to rest on the A string, then pluck the A string again with the middle finger. I can't decide if it is a bad habit or not...i have been training myself to have more control of it lately through Chris's permutations.

 

[Wasnex]

Question that has been bugging me lately. How do you all handle index/middle alternating pizz when crossing? Do you strictly stick to the i/m alternation or are there instances where you might do something like two middle fingers in a row with a string crossing between each middle finger attack. I've discovered i have a habit of doing that when string crossing from a say the D string to the A string. Pluck D string with the middle finger, it then comes to rest on the A string, then pluck the A string again with the middle finger. I can't decide if it is a bad habit or not...i have been training myself to have more control of it lately through Chris's permutations.

The general rule is strict alternation when ascending. When descending you can stick with strict alternation or rake.

What you describe going from the D to A string would be a rake and is entirely okay IMHO.

 

[sean_on_bass]

The general rule is strict alternation when ascending. When descending you can stick with strict alternation or rake.

What you describe going from the D to A string would be a rake and is entirely okay IMHO.

Thanks, yes the downward rake has always seemed like a reasonable thing to do so i guess my body just kind of gravitated to it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've discovered i have a habit of doing that when string crossing from a say the D string to the A string. Pluck D string with the middle finger, it then comes to rest on the A string, then pluck the A string again with the middle finger. I can't decide if it is a bad habit or not...i have been training myself to have more control of it lately through Chris's permutations.

Back in 2012 or so when I made that video, I had been practicing strict permutations for years just because I felt it was a good skill to have control of. At 56, I still offer to race 20 something students down a long hallway where we run like we pluck. One actually took me up on this, with comical results.

But these days, I consider descending rakes the primary and more efficient way to handle that kind of string crossing. I also consider them an “official” pizz legato technique along with the hammer on and pull off, and a smart thing to build into any organized strategy for practicing pizzicato articulation. Always alternate upward string crossings, never articulate downward ones unless the musical context of what you are playing suggests otherwise.

 

[Bruce Calin]

If I remember Mike Richmond's walking bass book correctly, he also advocates rakes descending on triplets and similar articulations.

 

[BobDeRosa]

I think you're taking exactly the right approach. Your best friends will be time and dedication.

 

[djc03006]

I think you're taking exactly the right approach. Your best friends will be time and dedication.

Thank you, agreed!

 

[djc03006]

Back in 2012 or so when I made that video, I had been practicing strict permutations for years just because I felt it was a good skill to have control of. At 56, I still offer to race 20 something students down a long hallway where we run like we pluck. One actually took me up on this, with comical results.

But these days, I consider descending rakes the primary and more efficient way to handle that kind of string crossing. I also consider them an “official” pizz legato technique along with the hammer on and pull off, and a smart thing to build into any organized strategy for practicing pizzicato articulation. Always alternate upward string crossings, never articulate downward ones unless the musical context of what you are playing suggests otherwise.

I've always naturally raked when descending, alternate on ascending, so I think that will help. Sometimes I can be stubborn, but trying to work smarter, not harder when I can - to that extent, I think hammer-ons and pull offs will help a great deal.

Pull offs are challenging initially to get a good clear sound. I think slowing down and exaggerating the technique at the beginning will help.