Rigs and PA support...

[totallybacan]

Haha lucky people! You with your full PA support 1 out of 3 of my shows will have a PA for something other than Vocals, and 9 out of 10 this will only include the bass drum and possibly a multidirectional over the drum set. When there has been a PA running that will include the guitar and bass as well, the guitarist and I usually opt to stay out of it, since most of the soundmen we encounter only have money to buy the lower end PA equipment, which our rigs can easily over power.

I must say, turning up to a bit under halfway and feeling your chest resonate from dozens of feet away sure is an experience!

IF on the off chance we get some decent sound guy, AND we go in the system, we will still carry our gig rigs. A little moniter is not the same experience as a full rig. Some may argue that you only need to hear yourself, but my band has so much more fun when we have power with us on stage. Again, this is our thing and may not be for everyone.

 

[georgestrings]

I've never played a gig where the drums were loud enough for the gig acoustically, except in our rehearsal room where we play rather quiet. They always get added to the mix in the PA, even if only a little. I don't think I've ever (not even once in 30 years) played through a PA that sent only vocals or a few instruments through. But then again, I'm playing fairly loud rock, and not some anemic muzak version of it (though I have heard some very talented bands play nice, polite renditions of AC/DC).

I have, and still do sometimes - we occasionally play bars that hold around 75 people max, and in places like that I'll mic the kick and snare, and run them, guitar, and vox through the PA - and let the rest of the drums and my bass rig carry the room... We've gotten excellent results that way in smaller places - I still run a DI feed to the board from my bass amp, but keep the channel fader all the way down - it's main purpose is to send a bass feed for my drummer's IEM mix...

Our drummer is pretty loud - we play modern rock and metal mostly, and he's a bit of a pounder... Now, for any places bigger than that, everything goes through the FOH - but for those smaller places, my Powerhouse 610 bass cab carries a room nicely, and keeps up with our drummer quite well when pushed with a 700rb-II or GBE 600...



- georgestrings

 

[Sundogue]

I have, and still do sometimes - we occasionally play bars that hold around 75 people max, and in places like that I'll mic the kick and snare, and run them, guitar, and vox through the PA - and let the rest of the drums and my bass rig carry the room... We've gotten excellent results that way in smaller places - I still run a DI feed to the board from my bass amp, but keep the channel fader all the way down - it's main purpose is to send a bass feed for my drummer's IEM mix...

Our drummer is pretty loud - we play modern rock and metal mostly, and he's a bit of a pounder... Now, for any places bigger than that, everything goes through the FOH - but for those smaller places, my Powerhouse 610 bass cab carries a room nicely, and keeps up with our drummer quite well when pushed with a 700rb-II or GBE 600...



- georgestrings

You know what we call a room that holds 75 people?

Rehearsal space.

But hey, to each his own.

Last night I did an impromptu jam at a wedding of a friend who is a musician and he hired a bluegrass band, but a lot of the musicians in attendance were in bands together off and on, so it got to be be a huge "open mic" thing.

Tiny PA, no drums mic'd (outdoors under a a big tent) and a line out for the bass though and all the other instruments were mic'd along with vocals. It didn't sound too bad out front as the volume was rather low. Drums and bass were too quiet and guitars were too loud out front, but it was still entertaining and it was a party, not a gig so who am I to bust someone for that? Then when a bunch of us got together onstage, I got to play through a fender Rumble 100 (nice tone out of that, but seriously underpowered). I couldn't hear much of any bass or drums onstage at all...and that was with me (quite literally) sandwiching myself between the bass amp (up on a crate) and the drummer.

Others said it sounded good out front, but hell I wouldn't know if I was even playing the same songs as the rest because the bass and drums were non existent. A guessing game the whole time.

If my regular band had to play that way, I'd find another band or retire. Good thing it was just an amusing little improv, spur of the moment deal.

It was fun however and the best part was not having to pack up.

 

[modulusman]

Haha lucky people! You with your full PA support 1 out of 3 of my shows will have a PA for something other than Vocals, and 9 out of 10 this will only include the bass drum and possibly a multidirectional over the drum set. When there has been a PA running that will include the guitar and bass as well, the guitarist and I usually opt to stay out of it, since most of the soundmen we encounter only have money to buy the lower end PA equipment, which our rigs can easily over power.

I must say, turning up to a bit under halfway and feeling your chest resonate from dozens of feet away sure is an experience!

IF on the off chance we get some decent sound guy, AND we go in the system, we will still carry our gig rigs. A little moniter is not the same experience as a full rig. Some may argue that you only need to hear yourself, but my band has so much more fun when we have power with us on stage. Again, this is our thing and may not be for everyone.

How about the audience, are they having fun when your onstage amps are completely overpowering the vocals because of the crappy PA? You should be more concerned about how your band sounds as a whole. If this means turning down then so be it.

 

[Sundogue]

How about the audience, are they having fun when your onstage amps are completely overpowering the vocals because of the crappy PA? You should be more concerned about how your band sounds as a whole. If this means turning down then so be it.

Onstage volume (as far as appreciating and being emotionally attached to the music you are playing) is critical to a good performance.

But you are so right...it's equally important that the onstage mix is blended as perfect as possible to the PA's sound so that the audience is let in on your good time. We play for ourselves first, but also for the audience. To do otherwise is purely musical masturbation. Both feel good...one feels even better.

 

[Past 11]

How about the audience, are they having fun when your onstage amps are completely overpowering the vocals because of the crappy PA? You should be more concerned about how your band sounds as a whole. If this means turning down then so be it.

+1 on turning it down. That's resolved a lot of our issues with sound. We use the PA conservatively for support. I always take the full rig to any show. Last FOH I played through lacked some serious low-mids with only a direct line. The low end was great...but nothing else could be dialed in beyond that.

 

[Lindsay]

Onstage volume (as far as appreciating and being emotionally attached to the music you are playing) is critical to a good performance.

This is why I like to have some power up my sleave. There's nothing worse than playing a gig without being able to hear yourself.

Also, I play too many gigs where I don't know the sound guy and don't know if the monitors/power amp/mixer will be sufficient to ensure that I can hear myself.

If I'm playing a large gig with a known soundman and known PA and - importantly - there aren't too many bands on the bill, then I'm more relaxed. But if we play at a new venue with an unknown sound guy, then I take myself out of the monitor equation and leave the singers and horns to try and extract an adequate mix on stage.

I want to be free to play and perform. If I can't hear myself I stand still scowling.

 

[seamonkey]

I am new to PA support. I played a club last weekend and the sound guy just came up and took the signal from the XRL on my GK.I was using 2 rbx 2 10s. I could hear myself fine on stage but I guess what was coming out of the PA was too loud, so I turned down.

The sound check went so fast, I didn't know what was happening.


We are playing a club next weekend that looks like it has great lighting and sound. Thing is, again we go on last like at 11:45PM, and we don't get much set up time.

Who ever told you were too loud, how did they know?

After a while, ears adjust to louder sound. Like turning the stereo first thing - it will sound loud and you're likely to turn it down. After a while you'll turn it up. Maybe your levels were fine and just the newness of the volume made somebody think you were too loud.

Bring along someone who knows your band to work with the sound engineer during your set. Or first song or two could be an instrumental and have the singer sit out front with the sound person and make suggestions on sound levels for the instruments.

If they walk up to you to tell you to turn down, then your stage volume is probably too loud that they can't control things out front.

That sound out front is what's going to get you back.

Best of luck

 

[SteveC]

Onstage volume (as far as appreciating and being emotionally attached to the music you are playing) is critical to a good performance.

But you are so right...it's equally important that the onstage mix is blended as perfect as possible to the PA's sound so that the audience is let in on your good time. We play for ourselves first, but also for the audience. To do otherwise is purely musical masturbation. Both feel good...one feels even better.

I disagree. Onstage volume is not "critical" to a good performance. Hearing yourself and the rest of the musicians is.

FOH/audience mix is top priority. The audience is who makes you gig possible. It's fine to "play for yourself" but you better remember who's making it possible - audience and managment. They make your paycheck possible.

 

[totallybacan]

How about the audience, are they having fun when your onstage amps are completely overpowering the vocals because of the crappy PA? You should be more concerned about how your band sounds as a whole. If this means turning down then so be it.

Of they are having fun. If anything, vox over power us. But the sound system is almost always maxed out, so adding some power hungry frequencies in there will quickly ruin the experience for others. That's also the point of a soundcheck and a wireless, so that we can hear how it sounds up front.

 

[dixie1983]

I play at mostly average size venues/small clubs to mid size pubs, I use my ashdown rig for the main bottom end and punch, and D.I into the desk just for the mids/highs just to give a bit of clarity.

 

[Sundogue]

I disagree. Onstage volume is not "critical" to a good performance. Hearing yourself and the rest of the musicians is.

FOH/audience mix is top priority. The audience is who makes you gig possible. It's fine to "play for yourself" but you better remember who's making it possible - audience and managment. They make your paycheck possible.

You completely misunderstand me. And I could go into a very long discourse on why artists do what we do (and have, at seminars I've conducted as a fine artist...and ALL art is the same regardless), but fundamentally, NOBODY plays music for the crowd ONLY.

Only an idiot would think that it's only about themselves when performing music live (and there are plenty that do). What's the point of playing music to others if you don't care about others?

My point was that we play for ourselves first and foremost. If we aren't then there really is little need to invest much of ourselves in it, is there? That cannot be denied and I'd like to hear reasoning otherwise. Having said that, perhaps how I should have phrased it was...

Onstage volume (as far as appreciating and being emotionally attached to the music you are playing) is critical to a GREAT performance.

I never said it has to be loud, only that the volume YOU need for it to be a rewarding experience (that inspires you to play beyond what you might normally play) requires a certain level of volume. If you disgaree and think it's all about the crowd, DI to the PA and play without hearing yourself at all. As a professional you could still play everything without hearing yourself AT ALL (and I have already). It is far from inspiring and leaves you being little more than a factory worker. You get the job done, period. Whoop-de-do. I'm sure that's why we all got into music...'cause we needed a job and McDonald's wasn't hiring.

 

[hbarcat]

You know what we call a room that holds 75 people?

Rehearsal space.

But hey, to each his own.

I call it making $125 for a night of playing classic rock tunes to bar patrons. I've done many of these shows over the years and, even though I've played much larger shows, I don't look down my nose at them. I still gladly play them and enjoy them, and my band always has good sound, with or without PA support, because we've been together a long time and know from experience how to get the most out of our gear.

But hey, someone who's gone on to "bigger and better things" is still okay with me.

 

[rtslinger]

Okay throwing in my two cents we have a full blown PA and it is a must in our area.
that being said I have been playing bass since I was 9 years old I am 50 yeah, yeah I know long time I have been in Metal, Rock, Hard Rock bands since 13 I have as you can guess felt the thunder and shake of many SVT's on stage I have also had my share of hearing loss due to that very thing! Today smarter and wiser I go with no amp (SansAmp bass drive Di only) direct to the PA, monitor custom ear buds and a bass wedge monitor on the floor so I can feel the shake. Live music is my business and to be successful you got to give them the best product our sound is what brings them back night after night. I to lived for that sound that feel that my stack of SVT's brought but was it best for the band for the listener? no and in the long run it wasn't best for me either. So if you are young and just starting to rock the bass use today’s technology sansamp ear buds even butt kickers to hear and feel your bass so you can get that excitement back that a big live rig brings and play at the top of your game without wreaking your back or losing your hearing!

Thanks regards,
Rob

 

[Sundogue]

I call it making $125 for a night of playing classic rock tunes to bar patrons. I've done many of these shows over the years and, even though I've played much larger shows, I don't look down my nose at them. I still gladly play them and enjoy them, and my band always has good sound, with or without PA support, because we've been together a long time and know from experience how to get the most out of our gear.

But hey, someone who's gone on to "bigger and better things" is still okay with me.

My remark was a bit in jest. We still play small rooms too...and we still, on rare occasion, have a few gigs where counting the bartenders double the size of the crowd.

The only thing I look down my nose at is my bass (it is underneath it after all).

And I hear you...one band of mine has been together for 16 years and that's the one that uses the robust PA and we all know how to use it and run it.

 

[TC2112]

I'm with RTSlinger ,
Pre-amp > D.I. > P.A. with 2 wedge monitors in front of me. One carrying my bass and one carrying the out front mix with the vocals pretty hot.
I have no desire to be hauling giant cabs and racks of gear around anymore. I used to carry two front loaded JBL 15's and a hartke 2x10 cab with Laney power in the 80's, but I'm far to old for that now. If I need any more than the monitors for onstage, I sometimes carry a Hartke 1410 combo to put behind me for stage fill. but that's not very often

 

[IvanMike]

i generally always play with a 12 and 15 stack so the sound is closer to my head even if i'm playing quietly. I've also thrown a single cab up on something for the same effect.

once you're using a big PA you and the soundman have to communicate well on your rig volume. I'f you're lucky the backline will get monitors. Really lucky and they'll be good ones.

To me, the most important skill i've developed is being able to play well even if i can't hear that well on stage. I've had many a gig where i stared at the drummer's right foot all night to keep in time. Yes, stage sound is important, but secondary to FOH.