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Rigs and PA support...

Sundogue

Sundogue

Apr 26, 2001
8,795
481
65
Wausau, WI
#1
OK, for a long time I've read posts and threads about people's rigs, recommendations for rigs, and what works onstage depending on whether you have PA support or not. This is mainly for the rock crowd, but I'm interested in everyone's opinion on this.

OK, I get that if you have PA support, your rig does not have to carry the sound for the crowd. But in reality, shouldn't the drums and bass BOTH be carried? How exactly is the drummer's sound (sans an amp of his own) get carried to the crowd for a perfect mix without PA support? Drums can be loud, no doubt...but say, in a loud rock band, what good is it having a rig carry your sound to the crowd if your drummer is left in the dust? Perhaps your overall band volume is so low that your rig is sufficient for out front because it isn't any louder than drums are acoustically out front. I've almost never played in that situation, so help me understand that concept.

Secondly, even if you have a PA, unless you have some pretty robust "bass capable" monitors with this PA, exactly what benefit does having a PA help you with your bass sound onstage? Are you pointing the PA at the band instead of the crowd so you can hear your bass better? Because unless you are doing that, I don't see what correlation there is with having a PA and getting by on a small rig onstage (unless again, you play no louder out front than the drums acoustically).

So what's the deal with having PA support or not and the correlation with your rig? To me, those are two completely separate entities. One's for you and the band, and one's for the crowd.

In my case, playing in a loud classic rock band, we play fairly loud onstage (not deafening or annoyingly loud, but still it's loud). We use a PA so the crowd gets a balanced mix with the drums being mic'd and fully present in the PA and my bass added to this mix for a powerful presentation of our rock band.

There is no way the PA does anything for me onstage unless I get some deep low end benefit from the PA's sub on my side of the stage if it's close enough. However, the band is behind the PA so that's the only benefit I get from the PA personally...and that is just the low end from the back of the sub. Hardly enough to compensate tone-wise for a lack of a substantial rig onstage behind me. And more specifically, because the drums lack their own amp, once they are brought up in the PA, the rest of us onstage bring our own volume up a bit onstage to compensate (because the drums are heard and felt throughout the room more, including onstage, when sent through the PA).

So what is this benefit I keep hearing from those who say you can get by with a small bass rig onstage if you have a PA? Are you only concerned with your stage rig giving you an audible clue to what you are playing? I don't know about anyone else, but part of the reason I play bass is to feel it in addition to the tone from playing bass. To simply be able to hear it is not enough for me personally...And I'm not talking earthquake loud here, just some personally inspiring bass onstage.

We have a kick ass PA (subs alone are two JBL SRX728's driven by two 4000 watt QSC power amps) and still the PA is of no real benefit to me onstage. The overall sound outdoors or in a club is louder with the PA, but not where I'm hearing my bass distinctly without my own powerful rig. How on earth is the PA making a difference for you guys onstage?

Call me curious. :confused:
 
#3
I agree with what you are saying. Your rig is for stage volume, not for the audience. I've always put bass and drums through the P.A., although sometimes at very low levels just to "fill out" the sound and provide a balanced mix as you indicate. Anybody who doesn't put bass and drums through a P.A. is either playing a VERY small room or doesn't care much about what the audience hears.

I think the guys who talk about scaling their rig based on P.A. support are talking about pro P.A. systems with several monitors and side fills, some or all of which will have bass pumping through them. Basically, they are using the stage monitors as their "rig".
 
#4
metdistortion said:
I think the general idea is that the small rig is just used as a monitor, so it only needs to be loud enough for you to hear it. The PA it's hooked up to provides all the volume for the crowd. I don't think the PA makes a difference for on stage sound.
Click to expand...

I use my rig as a monitor as well. But it isn't some little 110 so I can hear my bass like I was listening to a concert through a TV speaker. Just being audible for reference is different than hearing and feeling the bass completely. But that's a matter of preference I'm sure.

Perhaps my viewpoint is skewed by the fact that in 30 years of playing in rock bands, I've never been without FULL PA support. So I guess I don't understand having a rig carry the room (except in a rehearsal environment).

Of course the PA is for the crowd, but the mentioning of it in recommendations for personal onstage rigs, gives the impression that one can get by onstage with very little if one has PA support (as if having a PA is going to "make up the difference" onstage).
 
#5
slagbass said:
I agree with what you are saying. Your rig is for stage volume, not for the audience. I've always put bass and drums through the P.A., although sometimes at very low levels just to "fill out" the sound and provide a balanced mix as you indicate. Anybody who doesn't put bass and drums through a P.A. is either playing a VERY small room or doesn't care much about what the audience hears.

I think the guys who talk about scaling their rig based on P.A. support are talking about pro P.A. systems with several monitors and side fills, some or all of which will have bass pumping through them. Basically, they are using the stage monitors as their "rig".
Click to expand...

Yes, even in some smaller rooms, we put it all through the PA. Obviously it is to varying degrees of volume depending on the room size/crowd, to (as you said) fill out the sound in a more balanced way. To a large degree, using a full PA that fills a room, does affect the sound onstage (in a loud hard rock band scenario), which means the onstage rig becomes even more important.

And of course, the huge pro touring PA's is a completely different beast entirely. I'm talking about hauling your own PA and gear.
 
#6
I too prefer large rigs, especially when playing at clubs with enormous P.A.s, run by soundmen who keep them cranked up all the time. Onstage I couldn't hear the drummer (or anyone else) even if I was two feet away from him, due to the cranked P.A.s. It was scary to gig at those places because I couldn't hear myself at all, so I was pretty much playing from memory. Usually our band is one of three or four on a bill, so there is no time to have a meaningful conversation with the soundman to tweak the monitors, or even a proper sound check. You just have to get up and play. The "mix" is done during the first song, if at all. The idea that a good soundman can get everything right onstage is just a theory AFAIC, as I've never run into one yet. Most soundguys I've encountered just want to turn everything up till the place is shaking.

In order to combat this I acquired a pretty substantial rig, and it's working out great. At least I can hear myself through the shock wave of the P.A.

Also, the other week I played a gig at a club that had a very small P.A. The speakers each had a 15" and a horn, and the power amp was probably about 600W. Only the vocals and drums were miked. Our amps provided the rest. If I'd showed up with a small bass rig, we'd have been SOL. The sound was great, and we all heard each other onstage. We got compliments on our sound from the audience too.

YMMV
 
#7
I played a show with full PA support last night and it was tragic. I could not hear myself for all but one song. We used the line out of my B1500. I've never done that before so I wasn't sure if I was to rely on the monitors or if using my cab as monitor was an option. I never touched my amp to turn it up for fear of upsetting whatever balance the sound guy had achieved. He was rather intimidating.

The monitors that they did have set up were nasty sounding. It was a sick, distorted blend of guitar and vocals. The monitor next to it was breaking up because of all of the drums ripping through it. I think the only bass I was hearing was a subtle combination of my rig and one of the 215 speakers set up next to me. I'm sure we sounded fine but I was not playing at the top of my game since I couldn't hear what I was doing. If we sounded at all like we did through the monitors then I feel sorry for the audience. That was brutal.

The following act used the same setup and they sounded really good out in the front. That provided some comfort.

I really liked how they sounded through the full PA so I get your point about it being for the audience. I don't think I could ever pull of the "throw a DI into the gigbag and run off to the club to play a show" because of this experience. I'd need some reliable monitors if that were to ever be the case.

Would turning up the volume on my rig impact the line out level on my amp? I would think not since the B1500 has a line out level knob next to the jack. I also didn't want to get it too loud (to compete with the monitors) and end up making the sound guy mad.
 
#8
I get by with a small rig most of the time simply because my regular band isn't real loud onstage (I call it medium), so what I get out of it is plenty. As for the drums...don't worry...in a place without PA support, 9 times out of 10 they're plenty loud enough...the drums get picked up by other mics onstage as well.

There are times where I can't hear a lick of PA subs, and there are times where it blows my head off. But if you're not hearing the subs blast low end, obviously you need to turn up some. BTW, don't be afraid to turn up a little even when you have PA...a little bleed isn't going to kill anyone or ruin your sound. Don't get ridiculous about it, but just about every gig I do, the bass amp bleeds into the crowd...only the most anal of anal soundmen can't deal with it. I'm with you, Sundogue...I need to hear and feel it onstage, too.
 
#9
Call it insecurity if you will, but I use a fairly large, (2x15) rig, no matter how big or badass the PA might be. I know that where ever I'm playing, I'm doing my part to keep the bass in the mix. Many times, in small dives, the PA can't handle much more than vocals anyway.
 
#10
Often mentioned, usually by Bill Fitzmaurice, is the subwoofer power alley
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This alley is also where you usually stand on stage.

Put the subs in the PA together. And since low frequencies are omnidirectional, this will either solve the not hearing them problem, or push the subs back so you can hear.

Do what ever you want on stage, big rig, IEM's etc. I prefer to not get into volume wars so I make sure my bass mids are heading towards my ears. If other's on stage can't hear me they can get a monitor mix, or turn down.
The sound engineer out front needs to make sure the audience here's a good mix no matter what the complaints on stage are, but they can't do their job if the on-stage amps overpower the PA for the room.
 
#11
A couple weeks ago my band played a show out of town. We'd never been to this venue before but it had a reputation as a hip hop club. We got there and found out that we were playing a metal show on the premises that we use the smallest part of the club, this tiny bar with a lousy excuse for a stage. My drummer had to move the drum rise off the stage because he couldn't fit both his kit and himself on it at the same time.

The PA was a tiny piece of (edit: garbage) Behringer and the bassist for one of the bands decided to run sound, something he had very little experience with. He reasoned that since I had "a big enough rig", that I didn't have to be run through the PA and I could just crank my amp. There were no monitors at this venue, someone brought some and my vocalist used them to monitor himself.

Everyone else was run through the PA but me. I cranked so much that my guitarist told me to turn down, but she tends to judge what everything sounds like together based on what she can hear from where she's standing on stage. She and I are always set up right next to each other. I did not comply since she was being run through the PA.

That's what it's like not having PA support. I (edit: pert) near (edit: soiled) myself several times, and if the guy running sound wasn't a friend and twice my size, I would've punched his lights out.
 
#12
I'm in a position where we run our own PA, and we all have wireless and we can get our ideal sound onstage AND outfront, without having to deal with some soundman who has a different idea of what we should sound like, or what I like to sound like onstage and outfront.

Adding PA into the mix, to me, only makes having a great rig all that much more important, not less. Once the drums come up in the PA (sometimes significantly depending on the gig), our stage sound needs to be adjusted a bit because now the drummer has some power behind him as well, filling the room. It may or may not alter my ability to hear my bass the same way. The idea that having PA support absolves a bass player from having the right gear for the job sounds kind of counterproductive. Although from the sounds of things, in a lot of cases the sound guy himself is what is counterproductive. Not in my case thankfully.

I've never played a gig where the drums were loud enough for the gig acoustically, except in our rehearsal room where we play rather quiet. They always get added to the mix in the PA, even if only a little. I don't think I've ever (not even once in 30 years) played through a PA that sent only vocals or a few instruments through. But then again, I'm playing fairly loud rock, and not some anemic muzak version of it (though I have heard some very talented bands play nice, polite renditions of AC/DC).
 
#15
I am new to PA support. I played a club last weekend and the sound guy just came up and took the signal from the XRL on my GK.I was using 2 rbx 2 10s. I could hear myself fine on stage but I guess what was coming out of the PA was too loud, so I turned down.

The sound check went so fast, I didn't know what was happening.


We are playing a club next weekend that looks like it has great lighting and sound. Thing is, again we go on last like at 11:45PM, and we don't get much set up time.
 
#17
I'm leaving AM for a week so this is my last comment, lucky U.

Your band should be your band... If you play with 2 412 Marshall cabs with 1 100 watt head per guitarist and you have 1 or 2 SVT cabs with 1 or 2 SVT driving them, the drummer from hell and a PA sitting on the stage only for the vocals... That is your BAND. You bring that to wherever you play.

You do not need PA support tons of monitors or nothing. You can get by just fine with this system. I did just fine this way for years.

NOW, all of a sudden you are playing First Avenue in Minneapolis... They have a monster PA, the old sound guy was a buddy of mine... You get to DI, monitor you name it for a huge room with lots of chatty people.

You bring your band you play your gig and you plug in to the PA. The thing is IN FRONT OF YOU, so you will need to have monitors for vocals, a little feed of the guy across the stage is nice, but still not usually necessary, because you brought your band with you. This is fine until venue acoustics get in the way and the boom clouds your signals.

For these mid sized gigs you guys that have trouble hearing is because you forgot most of your rig at home.

In big venues no matter how monsterous your rig is at minimum you need help to MIX with at least a mic and or DI. I'd bring 20 cabs to a gig and I will still plug in. It will be the Sound guy's job is to BLEND the FOH mix with my band's signals, not the other way around. He is SOUND SUPPORT, not the band.

He does a great job, things sound great. He does a piss poor job and you have crackling monitors and can't hear a thing. Thats crap no matter how good it sounds out front.

Have a nice week guys.

BOB
 
#18
If live sound from the stage perspective isn't crap, there's probably something wrong. The "show" is for the audience. If your band has their trip together then you know your music and it shouldn't be bugging you out. Set your rig so you can hear what you're doing, and communicate with your people.

It's almost the same as playing your bass with your eyes closed. Use the Force, butt-head!
 

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