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Double Bass Rinat Ibragimov's Bow Hold

C

CSBBass

Sep 21, 2013
96
69
#1
I've spoken to a couple other bassists before about the fantastic solo videos Rinat Ibragimov has posted on youtube. Something that's come up multiple times (and that another thread recently reminded me of) is his what others have called his "whacky" bow hold. I'm not really sure what's so unusual about it though, aside from that his middle and ring fingers seem to be extremely relaxed, at times not even touching the stick/frog while he plays. Is that it? Or is there more to it that I'm missing?

Here's couple of his videos, if you're not familiar:

 
#4
KUNGfuSHERIFF said:
He seems to use the thumb and bird finger as a pivot and let the bow float in his hand. I tried copying his grip and met with absolute failure. Fascinating stuff.
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By "bird finger," do you mean middle finger? He's definitely holding it between the thumb and first finger with the other three fingers just hanging in back. It is definitely a wacky bow grip. But it obviously works for him--absolutely beautiful playing.

O.P., here's what I would consider a more standard French bow grip:

 
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#5
SAlcott said:
In my experience with both down grips, the thumb, index, and pinky are the important ones in maintaining bow control.
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I completely agree, which is why I never thought his grip to be all that odd to my eye. I've seen a number of other string players use a grip something like this, albeit with the inactive fingers doing less moving around usually, especially in faster passages.

Lee Moses said:
By "bird finger," do you mean middle finger? He's definitely holding it between the thumb and first finger with the other three fingers just hanging in back. It is definitely a wacky bow hip. But it obviously works for him--absolutely beautiful playing.

O.P., here's what I would consider a more standard French bow grip:

Click to expand...


Interesting! I had always thought he was holding it between the thumb, pinky and index. At times during the Vanhal, it seems the pinky is a bit more stiff than I'd think it would be if it was just hanging, but I'm definitely seeing a bit of floating pinky in the Benda, so it looks you're probably right that he's controlling the stick mostly or entirely with the thumb and index finger, at least sometimes. I never realized it would be functionally possible to play with much control (especially with his level of dynamics and musicality) that way, so I guess that's why it never really occurred to me that that's what he's doing. I'll have to give it a try in the morning, though like kungfusherriff I'll probably fail pretty miserably, haha.

I agree that Bradetich's grip is far more conventional--that's essentially what I do, except after some experimentation I find that I get the most control and comfort with the thumb in the U of the frog, rather than at the tip of it against the stick. I've heard Franco Petracchi calls this the "Italian" bowhold, but it's practically the same thing except that they feel a bit different, unlike Rinat's grip.
 
#8
LouisF said:
Has he recovered from his stroke? Anyone know if he is back teaching or playing?
Thanks
Louis
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I don't have any recent news, but when I talked with Thomas Martin last summer, it didn't sound good.
He was working at regaining his speech.

Since I don't know, I shouldn't say much, but it would be a real tragedy to think someone who lived and breathed music like Rinat might not be able to play again.
 
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#10
CSBBass said:
Interesting! I had always thought he was holding it between the thumb, pinky and index. At times during the Vanhal, it seems the pinky is a bit more stiff than I'd think it would be if it was just hanging, but I'm definitely seeing a bit of floating pinky in the Benda, so it looks you're probably right that he's controlling the stick mostly or entirely with the thumb and index finger, at least sometimes. I never realized it would be functionally possible to play with much control (especially with his level of dynamics and musicality) that way, so I guess that's why it never really occurred to me that that's what he's doing.
Click to expand...

Sometimes his pinky does appear to make decent contact, but other times it appears to float in the air. If this were a beginner, I'd shake my head disapprovingly. But his results make me wonder if he isn't on to something.

So sorry to hear about his health problems. I hope and will pray for his improvement.
 
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#11
CSBBass said:
I've spoken to a couple other bassists before about the fantastic solo videos Rinat Ibragimov has posted on youtube. Something that's come up multiple times (and that another thread recently reminded me of) is his what others have called his "whacky" bow hold. I'm not really sure what's so unusual about it though, aside from that his middle and ring fingers seem to be extremely relaxed, at times not even touching the stick/frog while he plays. Is that it? Or is there more to it that I'm missing?

Here's couple of his videos, if you're not familiar:

Click to expand...

Ibragimov breaks Bradetich's suggestions on holding the bow ...and the bass! Bradetich sure has a lovely sounding bass.

Here is a Ibragimov mini masterclass where in the last couple of minutes there are some close-ups of his bow hand. He really holds it with thumb and index finger and let's the other fingers move free. I experimented with his style yesterday for 1.5 hours. Was not really feeling it, but I come from the German grip. Will continue some experimentation and see where it goes.

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#12
Jon Stefaniak said:
I don't have any recent news, but when I talked with Thomas Martin last summer, it didn't sound good.
He was working at regaining his speech.

Since I don't know, I shouldn't say much, but it would be a real tragedy to think someone who lived and breathed music like Rinat might not be able to play again.
Click to expand...

It really is heartbreaking--I had heard that he was teaching and even playing again (at the least, he was still listed on Guildhall's faculty pages, last I heard), but that may have just been a rumor going around, since the person I heard that from doesn't know Rinat personally at all. I certainly hope he's been having a speedy recovery since then.

Thanks for sharing the video, Jon, I hadn't seen that one. Can't argue with a demonstration from the man himself! Now to give it a try and see how it feels...

CaseyVancouver said:
Ibragimov breaks Bradetich's suggestions on holding the bow ...and the bass! Bradetich sure has a lovely sounding bass.

Here is a Ibragimov mini masterclass where in the last couple of minutes there are some close-ups of his bow hand. He really holds it with thumb and index finger and let's the other fingers move free. I experimented with his style yesterday for 1.5 hours. Was not really feeling it, but I come from the German grip. Will continue some experimentation and see where it goes.

Invalid Link Removed
Click to expand...

Actually, in watching the Recits towards the end, it looks like he tends towards more full finger contact when playing at louder dynamics--most of the first Recit, the grip looks fairly firm (except for the strangely hooked middle finger), but as he gets to the end of the phrase you can see the three fingers completely lifted from the stick as he decrescendos. They're never really locked down onto the stick, as they do often lift towards the end of notes, but in quieter dynamics it seems they never actually end up down on the stick. You can see this in the Mozart 39 too with the dynamic changes. I guess it does make sense, technically, that having fewer fingers on the stick could help with achieving a softer sound but it certainly is unusual.

Thanks for all the videos and insight, guys!
 
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#14
It's definitely an interesting bow hold, just not something I would choose to do.

OT slightly, but when we see great bass players do interesting/strange technique things I feel it is important to ask the question "does this strange technique help the player sound good, or do they sound good in spite of that technique?". If I were to hazard a guess, I don't think Rinat's technical facility/sound would change much if he used a different bow hold.

Just my $0.02.
 
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#15
I would also suggest to look up Luis Cabrera. He was a student of Rinat's and has a similar way of using the bow.

I want to apologise if I crossed any personal boundary sharing the information I did. Let me add that I do not know Rinat personally, but only admire his artistry and wish him the best.
 
#16
FWIW, Mark Kraemer of the Chicago Symphony seems to have a similar approach. You can observe it at 53:30 in this video of the CSO performing Beethoven 9:



Image.jpg
 
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#18
csrund said:
FWIW, Michael Kraemer of the Chicago Symphony seems to have a similar approach. You can observe it at 53:30 in this video of the CSO performing Beethoven 9:



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I remember my teacher telling me about MARK Kraemer -
He went from beginner to Chicago symphony in a really short time. He was like 18 or 19! I think he only studied with Joe Guestefeste for a few years before landing the gig, and the way he holds the bow has basically stayed the same since. Might be a bit strange, but it works well enough for him.

I can say that he has a pretty amazing reputation in the section for his preparation and professionalism. I believe the words were something like "never makes a mistake" or "never misses an entrance"
Back in the 70's he confessed to my teacher that he basically can't sightread, so he practiced every note on every piece.
 

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