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RIP Phil Lesh

Going back and listening and exploring the clips posted, I think I've figured out why I was never a big fan of the Dead (though I enjoy them well enough) - they always sound a little out of tune to me. There is a timbre to their sound that's just ever-so-much off, enough that my ears pick up on it. It always sounds just wrong-enough that I can't fully get into it.

Still. RIP Phil, a real pioneer and great bassist.
My issue with The Grateful Dead is that I think their songs, while having a certain charm, are pretty bland and mediocre norminal rock with a slight folkish vibe, as far as I am concerned.

Not bad, just nothing special.

This of course is a matter of taste alone.

But also their studio recordings surprisingly, even somewhat paradoxical, not particular phychedelic, explorative or experimental.

But also as far as I understand their big strength was not so much their song writing style, and studio recordings, but rather their live concerts, ability to improvise and jam over those songs, energy on stage, and the unique synergy they created there, and with the audience, and I can definitely understand the fascination and appeal of experiencing this live.

In any case I do appreciate Lesh's playing, and recognize that he was one of the great pioneers, with a to this day unique voice, when it comes to playing bass in rock band, as well as he seems to be an incredible musician overall, with a remarkable understanding of the nature of music.
 
My issue with The Grateful Dead is that I think their songs, while having a certain charm, are pretty bland and mediocre norminal rock with a slight folkish vibe, as far as I am concerned.

Not bad, just nothing special.

This of course is a matter of taste alone.

But also their studio recordings surprisingly, even somewhat paradoxical, not particular phychedelic, explorative or experimental.

But also as far as I understand their big strength was not so much their song writing style, and studio recordings, but rather their live concerts, ability to improvise and jam over those songs, energy on stage, and the unique synergy they created there, and with the audience, and I can definitely understand the fascination and appeal of experiencing this live.

In any case I do appreciate Lesh's playing, and recognize that he was one of the great pioneers, with a to this day unique voice, when it comes to playing bass in rock band, as well as he seems to be an incredible musician overall, with a remarkable understanding of the nature of music.
Its not about their songs as much as it is about 'between' their songs. With so many hi quality recordings of 100s,1000s of live moments, peaks and valleys that only occur once in time, there is a lot of depth there to be explored.
 
My issue with The Grateful Dead is that I think their songs, while having a certain charm, are pretty bland and mediocre norminal rock with a slight folkish vibe, as far as I am concerned.

Not bad, just nothing special.

This is pretty much how I've always seen it...but...

Its not about their songs as much as it is about 'between' their songs. With so many hi quality recordings of 100s,1000s of live moments, peaks and valleys that only occur once in time, there is a lot of depth there to be explored.

In many moments where I would find myself on the borderline of being bored with some of the GD's less-inspired-improvisations (obviously IMO) I would simply switch to tuning everyone else out and just listen to what Phil Lesh was doing and he would amaze me every single time. That's one heck of a musician in my book.
 
My issue with The Grateful Dead is that I think their songs, while having a certain charm, are pretty bland and mediocre norminal rock with a slight folkish vibe, as far as I am concerned.

That's true for a bunch of their songs, but they have others that are far outside of that world.







Whether or not that's your cup of tea, they have a pretty wide scope of songs (not to mention the reggae in 7 of Estimated Prophet, and other newer material).

My issue with the Grateful Dead is that by the early 80s, they were on autopilot and stopped listening to each other as intently as they had in the past. Apparently some of the band members felt the same.
 
In a 2015 interview Phil said he thought the band was missing something after 1975. He doesn't put his finger on it but kind of implies (hard) drugs (and booze) and the music business in general and a quest for a more commercial sound. While he acknowledges there were still many great shows, they lost a certain consistency and vibe, that by the 80's had pretty much vanished (though not completely).

They kind of traded their swinging hazy acid-ness for a funky-er sound (disco Dead).

While 1977 certainly has much fire, 1976 is kind of wobbly, and 1978 onwards gets pretty spotty. Drugs, the times, and age all played a factor, as we know.
 
Yeah. And it’s weird but much of the best music happened about 1966-1975. Not just the GD. (Before my time!)

Anyways, any band seems spotty, like I like some songs on an album not others.

GD shows in the 80s and 90s were great, and great fun, but listening to live albums from that time, I dunno, just not as good as early 70s recordings. Part of it is the sounds aren’t as organic. Maybe that’s why everyone was doing unplugged shows about that time.
 
There's a recent thread going round the usual places with a thesis: in 400 years people will listen to the Grateful Dead the way we listen to Bach today.

It's not an entirely specious argument, which I will not attempt to paraphrase. Closer to the current subject matter, 72-74 is cited as the time to listen to what they are really doing.

To me, it's about follow the music, and this I do to this day.
 
Some people do already ;)

I'll note that J.S. Bach was renowned for improvisation (remind you of anyone?).

It's so true. My grandfather, who was a mid century concert pianist could improvise in that style, although ultimately he devoted himself to post 12 tone music in his later years. He could also realize figured bass on the fly and play in all 12 clefs. I was in awe growing up.
 
I found the thread, so no need for me to paraphrase:


"Four hundred years from now, they will be listening to Grateful Dead music like we do Bach. It is the most serious music of the century."

Someone from within the wider Dead community posted quite a thread in response:

"I want to comment on this because it's a claim that deserves consideration, although I don't want to actually litigate the question of "most serious". I will confine myself to a few comments about one aspect of the Dead's music that makes it "serious" — collective improvisation — and their peak period for this, 1972-1974.

First of all, one of the biggest and most idiotic misconceptions about the Grateful Dead and their fans is to miss how serious both the band, and many of their fans, are about music. They have often been caricatured as fumbling hippie noodlers with drugged-out fans who barely care what the band is playing. But the idiocy of this portrayal can be easily discerned when we consider the thousands of hours of live recordings that have long circulated among Deadheads.

Why would stoned party animals who don't care about music need all those recordings?

The music the Dead played demands — and amply repays — intense focus and years of careful study. They have been misunderstood because their music is so unique. The dead's collective improvisation is like nothing else in music, 20th Century or otherwise.

First of all, group improvisation — vs. soloing over a rhythm section — is itself relatively rare. Few jazz bands did (or do) it to the same extent, even, and these have been mostly those characterized as free jazz and/or free improvisation.

The great jazz combos of the 60s mostly played much more structured music, whereas the "free" combos generally play stuff that's consistently less structured. The dead were more likely to improvise more or less within a key, and with recognizable themes, although they also played free, atonal, and "noise" music. Other rock bands that improvised together — and there aren't that many — are generally more groove-oriented or repetitious (for instance, Can).

There's nothing wrong with that (I am a fan off Can!), but the point I'm making here is how unique the Dead were.

Every musician in the Dead more or less played lead. It's a huge mistake to look at a Dead performannce as a showcase for Jerry Garcia — this will not only prevent you from understanding their music, but also from understanding Garcia's own playing.

Because we're so used to hearing a guitar solo over rhythm, and because Garcia occupied the upper range and did indeed usually play what sounds like a lead line, there's a tendency to misapprehend what we're hearing when listening to the Dead.

If you want guitar solos, there's Jerry Garcia Band, but that's not generally what's happening with the Grateful Dead.

Consequently, even though their music is often catchy and accessible, it is in a sense difficult to listen to — certainly with any real understanding. You have to listen to all the musicians, and the way they are playing together. Take the time to do this, and you will find that the music is both very serious, and utterly unique.

People who take the time to study and understand this music will come to the conclusion that while the claim that it is the "most serious" music of the 20th Century is certainly a very strong, tendentious, and perhaps hyperbolic claim, it is far from absurd or indefensible."
 
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I found the thread, so no need for me to paraphrase:


"Four hundred years from now, they will be listening to Grateful Dead music like we do Bach. It is the most serious music of the century."

Someone from within the wider Dead community posted quite a thread in response:

"I want to comment on this because it's a claim that deserves consideration, although I don't want to actually litigate the question of "most serious". I will confine myself to a few comments about one aspect of the Dead's music that makes it "serious" — collective improvisation — and their peak period for this, 1972-1974.

First of all, one of the biggest and most idiotic misconceptions about the Grateful Dead and their fans is to miss how serious both the band, and many of their fans, are about music. They have often been caricatured as fumbling hippie noodlers with drugged-out fans who barely care what the band is playing. But the idiocy of this portrayal can be easily discerned when we consider the thousands of hours of live recordings that have long circulated among Deadheads.

Why would stone party animals who don't care about music need all those recordings?

The music the Dead played demands — and amply repays — intense focus and years of careful study. They have been misunderstood because their music is so unique. The dead's collective improvisation is like nothing else in music, 20th Century or otherwise.

First of all, group improvisation — vs. soloing over a rhythm section — is itself relatively rare. Few jazz bands did (or do) it to the same extent, even, and these have been mostly those characterized as free jazz and/or free improvisation.

The great jazz combos of the 60s mostly played much more structured music, whereas the "free" combos generally play stuff that's consistently less structured. The dead were more likely to improvise more or less within a key, and with recognizable themes, although they also played free, atonal, and "noise" music. Other rock bands that improvised together — and there aren't that many — are generally more groove-oriented or repetitious (for instance, Can).

There's nothing wrong with that (I am a fan off Can!), but the point I'm making here is how unique the Dead were.

Every musician in the Dead more or less played lead. It's a huge mistake to look at a Dead performannce as a showcase for Jerry Garcia — this will not only prevent you from understanding their music, but also from understanding Garcia's own playing.

Because we're so used to hearing a guitar solo over rhythm, and because Garcia occupied the upper range and did indeed usually play what sounds like a lead line, there's a tendency to misapprehend what we're hearing when listening to the Dead.

If you want guitar solos, there's Jerry Garcia Band, but that's not generally what's happening with the Grateful Dead.

Consequently, even though their music is often catchy and accessible, it is in a sense difficult to listen to — certainly with any real understanding. You have to listen to all the musicians, and the way they are playing together. Take the time to do this, and you will find that the music is both very serious, and utterly unique.

People who take the time to study and understand this music will come to the conclusion that while the claim that it is the "most serious" music of thee 20th Century is certainly a very strong, tendentious, and perhaps hyperbolic claim, it is far from absurd or indefensible."
Spent a good portion of my childhood locked in rooms with multiple tape decks running off recording after recording. Many times the same show, over and over. We were copying for friends or trade, but also diligently listening and noting, and getting excited or laughing at what just occurred on the recording. Writing the setlist down on a cassette for the 10th time. We got to know the music intimately, and still remember. With digital downloads, I dont think even good listeners get that depth. Are you going to listen to the same show today 6 times in a row? probably not, with all the choices. We can talk dates and I can get pretty close to many setlists, at least the highlights, or vica versa, setlists, segues and I can likely tell you the date and venue. kind of ocd. Maybe not as good as I used to be, since SO much more has been revealed since I was in that mode.......never did that with Beethoven though.......ahhh Bach
 
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Spent a good portion of my childhood locked in rooms with multiple tape decks running off recording after recording. Many times the same show, over and over. We were copying for friends or trade, but also diligently listening and noting, and getting excited or laughing at what just occurred on the recording. Writing the setlist down on a cassette for the 10th time. We got to know the music intimately, and still remember. With digital downloads, I dont think even good listeners get that depth. Are you going to listen to the same show today 6 times in a row? probably not, with all the choices. We can talk dates and I can get pretty close to many setlists, at least the highlights, or vica versa, setlists, segues and I can likely tell you the date and venue. kind of ocd. Maybe not as good as I used to be, since SO much more has been revealed since I was in that mode.......never did that with Beethoven though.......ahhh Bach
I caught the Dead several times in the early ‘70’s, then again in the mid-‘90’s. Always unique! Somewhere along the line I met “you guys”, the ones with all the tapes and the long debates about long past Dead shows - and I was and I remain truly amazed. Respect!
 
... diligently listening and noting, and getting excited or laughing at what just occurred on the recording.
Yes, I sometimes find myself laughing with sheer joy at something (especially something Phil plays).
Are you going to listen to the same show today 6 times in a row? probably not, with all the choices.
Maybe not 6 times in a row... but I have some favorites among the recordings in my collection that I can listen to intently and appreciate anew.
 
Yes, I sometimes find myself laughing with sheer joy at something (especially something Phil plays).

Maybe not 6 times in a row... but I have some favorites among the recordings in my collection that I can listen to intently and appreciate anew.
Ok to share a funny moment especially for BASS players.... at this show there is a wonderful 27 minute Dark Star, track 18. At the 20:40 mark Jerry clearly starts Morning Dew. Well, guess who doesnt want to play Morning Dew this evening, and Phil makes it very clear, then they move on. Always love this, as much as Morning Dew was the gold ring. Any other band , there would be a fist fight lol :)

 
Ok to share a funny moment especially for BASS players.... at this show there is a wonderful 27 minute Dark Star, track 18. At the 20:40 mark Jerry clearly starts Morning Dew. Well, guess who doesnt want to play Morning Dew this evening, and Phil makes it very clear, then they move on. Always love this, as much as Morning Dew was the gold ring. Any other band , there would be a fist fight lol :)


When was this recorded?
 
Mo Phil , less Phil... got to love the well known Veneta show...
Have FUN here...7 tracks to play with on some choice cuts. Slowly they add more.
 
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