Roman numerals and practicing triads in the major scale

[FenderB]

I'm not much of a wordsmith so I hope I can get this across. I have a rudimentary knowledge of music theory so I've been trying to wrap my head around the reason to use Roman numerals when expressing chords, I hope I got that right. I understand the maj-min-min-maj-maj-min-dim thing but I don't understand the purpose.

The second part of my question is, when practicing major scale triads do you follow the I ii iii IV V vi dim pattern or do you play major 3rds all the way through the scale? For instance C major scale, would you play the D as D-F#-A or D-F-A? Being root-maj 3rd-5th or root-min 3rd-fifth.
Hope this makes sense.
Jack

 

[Dogbertday]

One thing at a time...

If playing in C the D chord is minor, sobif you're practicing in the key play it minor.

When practicing diatonic (within a key) i like to play the circle of 4ths. (I IV vii° iii vi ii V I) because thats usually how they function and its more interesting.

The reason we use roman numerals is as a tool to describe chord functions and progressions without assigning a key. Saying "its a six four one five in G" is a pretty quick communication. And it can lead to "thats a little low, lets try it in A" in both cases the major/minor qualities are the same relative to the key.

Hope this makes sense

 

[dreamadream99]

I've been trying to wrap my head around the reason to use Roman numerals when expressing chords

It allows you to converse about chord progressions when you don't know the key, or when the key isn't important. It is also a universal way to notate a song that allows you, or anyone, really, to play it in any key.

when practicing major scale triads do you follow the I ii iii IV V vi dim pattern or do you play major 3rds all the way through the scale?

You stay in the key and follow the I ii iii IV V vi dim pattern.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

.... I've been trying to wrap my head around the reason to use Roman numerals when expressing chords, I hope I got that right. I understand the maj-min-min-maj-maj-min-dim thing but I don't understand the purpose.

Some old guy years back decided we would talk about chords in Roman numerals and notes in Arabic numbers (1, 2, 3's) so we would know which one we were talking about.

The second part of my question is, when practicing major scale triads do you follow the I ii iii IV V vi dim pattern or do you play major 3rds all the way through the scale? For instance C major scale, would you play the D as D-F#-A or D-F-A? Being root-maj 3rd-5th or root-min 3rd-fifth.
Hope this makes sense.
Jack

Yes, what you said. Triad to me means the three notes of a chord, i.e. the R-3-5 for a major chord and then the R-b3-5 if minor.

 

[FenderB]

One thing at a time...

If playing in C the D chord is minor, sobif you're practicing in the key play it minor.

When practicing diatonic (within a key) i like to play the circle of 4ths. (I IV vii° iii vi ii V I) because thats usually how they function and its more interesting.

The reason we use roman numerals is as a tool to describe chord functions and progressions without assigning a key. Saying "its a six four one five in G" is a pretty quick communication. And it can lead to "thats a little low, lets try it in A" in both cases the major/minor qualities are the same relative to the key.

Hope this makes sense

Thanks Dogbertday. So following the circle of 4ths in C I would play C-F-Bdim-Em-Am-Dm-G-C, right?

 

[FenderB]

Thanks dd99.

 

[Dogbertday]

Thanks Dogbertday. So following the circle of 4ths in C I would play C-F-Bdim-Em-Am-Dm-G-C, right?

Yup. Now the other 11 keys

 

[fearceol]

The second part of my question is, when practicing major scale triads do you follow the I ii iii IV V vi dim pattern or do you play major 3rds all the way through the scale? For instance C major scale, would you play the D as D-F#-A or D-F-A? Being root-maj 3rd-5th or root-min 3rd-fifth.
Hope this makes sense.
Jack

Perhaps another way of looking at this would be :

The chords of a given scale are made up of every other note ..1,3,5,7 etc.

To find out all the diatonic chords of a scale the idea is to to what's called "stacking 3rds". In the example below (using the key of C maj, we will do that...working from the bottom up. Every line will start with the 3rd note from the one below it.

ABCDEFG
FGABCDE
DEFGABC
BCDEFGA
GABCDEF
EFGABCD - E is the third note of the line below
CDEFGAB= C maj scale.

Now..if we read... from the bottom up, and from left to right... we have all the chords of the C maj scale. So...CEG is the Cmaj chord.
DFA (second line from bottom up ....) is D minor...etc. Why is this chord minor ? Because the interval between D and F is a minor third, whereas the interval between C and E in the C major chord is a major third (assuming you know about intervals).

CEGB...reading from bottom up on the left line... gives us the Cmaj 7th chord. Use as many lines as you wish, for extended chords...always reading from the bottom up and left to right.

Use this exercise and write out all the chords in every key.

Hope the above does not completely confuse you. This way of looking at scales/chords certainly was a "light bulb" moment for me. Hope it helps you too.

 

[FenderB]

Malcolm why do you put minor triads into a major scale? If the major scale is made up of all major notes and the minor scale is all minor notes so why do we mix minor triads with major triads when practicing triads in a major scale?

 

[fearceol]

Malcolm why do you put minor triads into a major scale? If the major scale is made up of all major notes and the minor scale is all minor notes so why do we mix minor triads with major triads when practicing triads in a major scale?

My post above (number 8) might help you here if you spend a bit of time digesting it.

 

[FenderB]

My post above (number 8) might help you here if you spend a bit of time digesting it. [/QUOTE

Thanks ferceol, it will definitely take me some time to digest this. I don't see the "DFA" in the second line from the bottom at all. What I see is EFGABCD.

 

[FenderB]

For some reason my reply to ferceol got posted 3 times, sorry about that.

Yup. Now the other 11 keys

It never ends. Ha,ha. Would help if I knew what I was doing.

 

[fearceol]

Take your time, and read the chart carefully. Go to "D" on the bottom line... Read the letter ABOVE that and ABOVE that again.

Always read from left to right...and from the bottom up.

 

[fearceol]

To help you a bit further....

The first line (left) from the bottom up gives you....CEGBDFA.

The second line from the left and from bottom to top is...DFACEGB...etc.

 

[IamGroot]

Not to be anal, but the "dim" mention above is actually the a half dim...aka Locrian mode. I usually call it the vii.

I you play using 4 fingers, the locrian scale is very easy. Normally the major scale (I) starts on the middle finger (2). Just start the scale with the index finger and voila, Locrian scale. So if you are asked to play B locrian, get your fingers in position to play the C major scale and start a note lower.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm not much of a wordsmith so I hope I can get this across. I have a rudimentary knowledge of music theory so I've been trying to wrap my head around the reason to use Roman numerals when expressing chords, I hope I got that right. I understand the maj-min-min-maj-maj-min-dim thing but I don't understand the purpose.

The second part of my question is, when practicing major scale triads do you follow the I ii iii IV V vi dim pattern or do you play major 3rds all the way through the scale? For instance C major scale, would you play the D as D-F#-A or D-F-A? Being root-maj 3rd-5th or root-min 3rd-fifth.
Hope this makes sense.
Jack

Just being open and up front here, but reading your posts, you have a few of what we called in the Navy, "gross conceptual errors".

You should probably go find a real, live human who understands this stuff. Like at a community college or music store. Sit with them and get a good firm understanding of what's happening here. I don't think you're' gonna get that full understanding through an internet forum. But believe me, you will get plenty of advice. Stand by...

 

[fearceol]

Just being open and up front here, but reading your posts, you have a few of what we called in the Navy, "gross conceptual errors".

You should probably go find a real, live human who understands this stuff. Like at a community college or music store. Sit with them and get a good firm understanding of what's happening here. I don't think you're' gonna get that full understanding through an internet forum. But believe me, you will get plenty of advice. Stand by...

I am inclined to agree with the above.

OP, unless you have a good grasp of basic of theory, you are going to be wrestling with my posts.. and others.. in this thread. You need to start at the bottom and build from there. Otherwise frustration will set in.

As Spin Doctor suggests, get a good teacher. Failing that, here is a great site. Start at the beginning of the study guide and work from there.

Study Guide | StudyBass

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Malcolm why do you put minor triads into a major scale? If the major scale is made up of all major notes and the minor scale is all minor notes so why do we mix minor triads with major triads when practicing triads in a major scale?

OK a major and minor key (the chords in the key) will have three major chords and three minor chords plus one diminished chord. Not all chords in a key are major or minor, there is a pattern they follow, that Maj, min, min Maj, etc. pattern you mentioned. Here is how it works out:

C major scale notes: C D E F G A B C

• Major key chord sequence: Maj min min Maj Maj min dim

I ii iii IV V vi vii
Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bm7b5

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C natural minor scale notes: C D Eb F G Ab Bb

• Natural minor key chord sequence: min dim maj min min maj maj

i iidim III iv v VI VII
Cmin Ddim Ebmaj Fmin Gmin Abmaj Bbmaj
Cmin7 Dm7b5 Ebmaj7 Fmin7 Gmin7 Abmaj7 Bb7

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Malcolm why do you put minor triads into a major scale? If the major scale is made up of all major notes and the minor scale is all minor notes so why do we mix minor triads with major triads when practicing triads in a major scale?

OK a major and minor key (the chords in the key) will have three major chords and three minor chords plus one diminished chord. Not all chords in a key are major or minor, there will be three major, three minor and one diminished in any seven note/chord major or minor key. In the following chart the minor chords are shown with lower case Roman numbers, i.e. ii, iii, vi, etc.

C major scale notes: C D E F G A B C

• Major key chord sequence: Maj min min Maj Maj min dim

I ii iii IV V vi vii
Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim
Cmaj7 Dmin7 Emin7 Fmaj7 G7 Amin7 Bm7b5
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C natural minor scale notes: C D Eb F G Ab Bb

• Natural minor key chord sequence: min dim maj min min maj maj

i iidim III iv v VI VII
Cmin Ddim Ebmaj Fmin Gmin Abmaj Bbmaj
Cmin7 Dm7b5 Ebmaj7 Fmin7 Gmin7 Abmaj7 Bb7

This site should help. Chords In The Key Of C Make yourself a chart of all the major keys and then another of all the minor keys. The making of the chart will end up helping you see all this clearly.

Good luck.

 

[mambo4]

For instance C major scale, would you play the D as D-F#-A or D-F-A?

F# is not in the key of C major, so it must be DFA -D minor triad.

Whichever chord root note you choose, build your chords using only notes in the C major scale.
This restriction is what forces the chords of c major to be either major or minor.
That's "why" the diatonic pattern is I ii iii VI iv vii (dim) for any major scale.