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Roy Vogt's Bass Ed Think Tank

#263
Thank you Jimmy, Fergie, Chad, & Roy for your responses. After reading/pondering/analyzing your questions and comments, I think I've broken down my issues/problems that I'm having as a bassist (or as an instrumentalist) into two different areas: wanting to play bass via my subconscious and communicating my bass lines/solos from my head to the fretboard.

JimmyM said:
when you sing, do you know what notes you're singing or do you just instictively know what to sing?
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No, I don't know the names of the notes I am singing when I vocalize harmony or sing a solo while listening to music. However, I do have the ear training for intervals. For example, if I'm told the beginning note is C and the next note I sing is the first interval of the Star Wars melody, I know I'm singing a G (or a perfect 5th).


JimmyM said:
the "if you can sing it, you can play it" thing really only works if you know what the notes are on the bass that you're singing.

once you're able to make the connection between what you're singing and what you're playing, then that cliche actually works. so if you haven't already, i think learning the notes you're singing would help immensely.

but if you have and it's still not connecting, maybe try singing some stuff and recording it, transcribing it, then try to play it on the bass. after you do that a while, i would think some of the naturalness of your singing would start to rub off on your bass playing.
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Great idea! I had already planned on buying a hand held tape recorder to document random lyrics and song ideas when I'm out and about around town...I think I'll also apply it when I'm listening to a chord progression through my computer speakers.


Fergie Fulton said:
+1 ever since you first made a noise with your vocal chords as a baby, you brain has had a neural pathway developed to relate to, develop, recognises and reproduce the relevant sounds, via vocal chords, tongue placement, breath control, and the mouth shape.
This has all happend without any concious thought you body developed these skills in the sub-concious if you will.

Now you add bass, and as Jimmy has said you brain has no real access to those notes because it does not recognise how to access them in any form. learn where the noted are and how the sound and relate to each other and it ill again become "natural".:)
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100% agreement with this comment. I think that part of my frustration is that I want to have this subconscious abilty when playing bass too! It's as if I have a "breakdown" of the mechanics somewhere. I can think of a note sound (not a note name - unfortunately I don't have perfect pitch) and I know how to produce it with my vocal chords. Whereas I think of a note sound to be played on my bass, I don't automatically know which fret/string to use.


Roy Vogt said:
Singing what you play can work, but it's more effective if you know the exact vocabulary. For instance, can you sing (and play) a major triad anywhere on the bass. If so, try minor, augmented, diminished, four note chords etc. Try simple ideas or "licks" (for example, a scale in 3rds) and see if you can sync up your voice with your bass.
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You know, that's really interesting Ron. I can play all of those triads and 7th chords on the bass because I know the fret/string pattern (I know, I'm trying to memorize the names of the notes and fretboard!!!), but I can't sing them off the top of my head...however, I can take them one note at a time and build the triad/7th chord by applying my theory knowledge of how they're indivually built, i.e. Maj triad is M3/m3 (C Ionian, CEG), Maj 7th is M3/m3/M3 (C Ionian, CEGB), etc. I'm going to have to set some time aside for this project!

I've only seen a handfull of bass players that can sing what they're playing at the same time. The one that sticks out the most was the bass player for Marc Broussard back in the spring of 2002 when they were opening up for OAR and pushing the "Momentary Setback" album - just Marc and the bassist: no drums, electric guitar, or back up singers! I want to say it was Calving Turner, but I'm not sure if he was with Marc at that time or not.

Speaking of music vocab...what do you mean when you say "scale in thirds"?

~ BP
 
#264
Roy Vogt said:
Depends on the gig-being bald hasn't hurt Paul Chapman or Sean O'Bryan Smith any....
;)
As for that 20 pounds...come to the Vegan Side, Luke....step away from that Barbecue.....;)
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dude, i ate vegan for a year and it was the best i ever felt in my life! the pounds melted off and i had tons of energy. then i met my wife ;) but i have gone back to it for spells and i love it. i'm on a vegan kick right now as a matter of fact. that was because i went to an italian restaurant wednesday night and came back with a medicine ball in my gut. i really need to stick it out this time, though. every time i gain back the weight it's taking longer for it to come off.
 
#265
BigPappa985 said:
100% agreement with this comment. I think that part of my frustration is that I want to have this subconscious abilty when playing bass too! It's as if I have a "breakdown" of the mechanics somewhere. I can think of a note sound (not a note name - unfortunately I don't have perfect pitch) and I know how to produce it with my vocal chords. Whereas I think of a note sound to be played on my bass, I don't automatically know which fret/string to use.
Click to expand...

Its about building up the brains ability to learn something, then you think about it, then react, then after a time it becomes sub-concious, then it becomes a permanent sub-concious reaction.
I am Scottish and have lived in England for over 25 years, to my own i sound English, to the English i sound Scottish.
When i meet another Scotsman those around me in England tell me i become "more Scottish" almost to the point where they cannot understand me. This sub-concious relation to my native accent is because i don't use it for the very reason stated, people don't understand me. So somewhere in time my accent has softened to stop English people "smiling at me and nodding when i talk."

So again how does my vocal chord make this change? I 'd say its as Roy said you have to use the skill in any form for it to develop, then keep on using it. They have something to relate to, my brain knows the tones and speed to use to make me "Scottish" again.:)
 
#266
JimmyM said:
dude, i ate vegan for a year and it was the best i ever felt in my life! the pounds melted off and i had tons of energy. then i met my wife ;) but i have gone back to it for spells and i love it. i'm on a vegan kick right now as a matter of fact. that was because i went to an italian restaurant wednesday night and came back with a medicine ball in my gut. i really need to stick it out this time, though. every time i gain back the weight it's taking longer for it to come off.
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I'm not vegan, strict vegetarian though. (vegan would also mean giving up a forty year old, 20lb biker jacket)Our work days can be so long and lives so stressful with broken up sleep patterns etc, I've found this diet to be the best, for energy and good health. I ALWAYS have food with me, to keep blood sugar at an even keel.

It's hard to play a gig after 10 hours on the road, set up, then steak dinner. One of the few times a gig has tempos too slow!

I'm with you on the weight loss, trying to take off 5 pounds is painful anymore, and I do endurance sports.
 
#267
To tell the truth, I'm on the 80/20 or 90/10 rule. I do the Vegan/vegetarian/clean eating 80% of the time and tell myself I can have whatever the other times. Funny thing is that I don't end up using my 20% whatever because I'm in the habit of not eating meat. One other factor is I stopped drinking alcohol completely about 2 years ago. Beer on the gig used to really put the pounds on me.
I've been swimming laps at the Y lately and that seems to work. I haven't hit the weight room as of yet but that's probably coming....
Now, I will use the 20% rule if I'm at the Rendezvous in Memphis! Just not McDonalds...
Oooops, bass education content: I find I have a clearer head and can process information better with the dietary change, but that's just me. YMMV
 
#268
Roy Vogt said:
To tell the truth, I'm on the 80/20 or 90/10 rule. I do the Vegan/vegetarian/clean eating 80% of the time and tell myself I can have whatever the other times. Funny thing is that I don't end up using my 20% whatever because I'm in the habit of not eating meat. One other factor is I stopped drinking alcohol completely about 2 years ago. Beer on the gig used to really put the pounds on me.
I've been swimming laps at the Y lately and that seems to work. I haven't hit the weight room as of yet but that's probably coming....
Now, I will use the 20% rule if I'm at the Rendezvous in Memphis! Just not McDonalds...
Oooops, bass education content: I find I have a clearer head and can process information better with the dietary change, but that's just me. YMMV
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Actually that's too important to our livelihoods to ignore and not consider a part of education, just like economics is ignored. Beer on a gig = less take home pay, and you can't write it off. (I have one or two though).

Lifting is a part of the job descritption for almost all of our gigs. You've got to be strong enough, through your lifetime, to pick up amps and cabs. Let's face it, we're not talking huge amounts of weight to lug around.

The clear head is also important. When you hit middle age, a lot of your peers have not made it because of not taking care of themselves. Difficult music and real study can't be done while in altered states or with a hangover.
 
#269
Billnc said:
Actually that's too important to our livelihoods to ignore and not consider a part of education, just like economics is ignored. Beer on a gig = less take home pay, and you can't write it off. (I have one or two though).

Lifting is a part of the job descritption for almost all of our gigs. You've got to be strong enough, through your lifetime, to pick up amps and cabs. Let's face it, we're not talking huge amounts of weight to lug around.

The clear head is also important. When you hit middle age, a lot of your peers have not made it because of not taking care of themselves. Difficult music and real study can't be done while in altered states or with a hangover.
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+1 to all of this, just sorta shows that the playing is the easy bit.......out of a 24 hr day playing the gig is about 10% of the job. Great post.
 
#271
Roy Vogt said:
+1 I've missed out on a couple of really nice tours because I didn't have a high tenor voice (for example, the late Roy Orbison). Especially in Nashville, the "singin' bass player" is a sought after commodity in bands.
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Can't tell you how true this is! Everybody wants a bass player who can sing. Unfortunately, I have not been graced with a great voice. I am going to make my kids take voice lessons as well as instrument lessons from the youngest age possible. I really regret not taking voice lessons myself, I know I would have more gigs.
 
#272
engedi1 said:
Can't tell you how true this is! Everybody wants a bass player who can sing. Unfortunately, I have not been graced with a great voice. I am going to make my kids take voice lessons as well as instrument lessons from the youngest age possible. I really regret not taking voice lessons myself, I know I would have more gigs.
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Its never to late to start lessons. I mean you have opportunity to sing in life everyday, so take them and apply any lessons you learn.

If you think about it, your justification to yourself for not talking the singing lessons is on par with those that justify not taking music or bass lessons.:)
 
#273
Fergie Fulton said:
If you think about it, your justification to yourself for not talking the singing lessons is on par with those that justify not taking music or bass lessons.:)
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Too true, although at this stage of the game, I have no money for a good voice teacher. I think in my earlier stages of life (20's) I thought that being a good player was all that mattered and didn't take singing seriously enough. Lesson learned! (the hard way, as usual)
 
#276
I do indeed mean the oscar peterson album. I'm new to jazz in the sense of going out and purposely buying 'jazz' albums, and that came about from the JB threads. I'm only just branching out more (upto now all the jazz albums i've got are by some the personnel on kind of blue, my first purchase, as bandleaders), so I'm hoping to learn something from Ray Brown's playing :)...
 
#277
aidan784 said:
I do indeed mean the oscar peterson album. I'm new to jazz in the sense of going out and purposely buying 'jazz' albums, and that came about from the JB threads. I'm only just branching out more (upto now all the jazz albums i've got are by some the personnel on kind of blue, my first purchase, as bandleaders), so I'm hoping to learn something from Ray Brown's playing :)...
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Excellent! I can promise with 100% certainly you will learn something from Ray Brown's playing. IMHO, no body walks with such style and groove-he simply struts! Also, I find his half time work, such as head to "Days of Wine and Roses" particularly excellent. Learning that song, and transcribing it on staff paper note for note, totally changed the way I played half time on the heads of a jazz tune forever.
I am gushing here, but Ray is perhaps my earliest jazz influence and along with Scot lafaro, my favorite Upright player. Since he was also James Jamerson's #1 influence, I feel like I am in good company! :p
 
#278
engedi1 said:
Too true, although at this stage of the game, I have no money for a good voice teacher. I think in my earlier stages of life (20's) I thought that being a good player was all that mattered and didn't take singing seriously enough. Lesson learned! (the hard way, as usual)
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I understand, i was just trying to encourage you not to close the door on it by finding justification to do so. Sometimes our brain just gets in the way of what we need to do. Lol.:)
 
#279
Hey Roy, i'm still on the subject of reading. As I'm working and improving, I'm noticing a tendency to read note groupings as intervals that I relate to scale shapes and positions, particulary when dealing with the more difficult key signitures. Do you advise against this or is it actually a good thing? Thanks for your input.
 
#280
I am not sure what Roy will say, but I would say that is an intermediate step in learning to read well, and is probably unavoidable. The problem here is that when you see an unfamiliar pattern, you will struggle to play it. Ideally, you can read difficult parts, without looking at your hands at all.
I think that you will grow out of the pattern thing in time. I am not sure though. I have been reading music for 20 years, have a degree in classical studies, and find that I can read most things well, except for syncopated rhythm patterns. Roy had me get the Standing in the Shadows of Motown book, which has done wonders for my rhythmic reading skills. This had the added benefit of exposing me to the wonder that was James Jamerson of which I was mostly ingnorant, prior to.

I am now learning to read something new, and I think I am also seeing it as patterns like you are Eminent, but I hope to grow out of that soon!
 

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