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Roy Vogt's Bass Ed Think Tank

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Roy Vogt, Mar 9, 2010.


  1. Billnc

    Billnc

    Aug 6, 2009
    Charlotte NC
    One way around it is (got this from a Joe Pass book and the local keyboard guru who only seems to think in chords) With dominant chords you can alter the 5th and the 9th. If you think about it this covers all the notes except the raised 7th over that G7. 1 b9 9 +9 3 4 b5 5 +5 6 b7.

    There is so much you can do. the first tensions I was taught were using chord tones from a Db7, or a flat 5 substitution.

    If you want to think in terms of modes, G Phrygian Major, Super Locrian and Half Whole diminished are common.

    If you've got G B D and F down it may be best for Roy to cover the next logical step. (You might add the b9 to the mix for starters, Ab)
     
  2. the phrygian appears to be a minor described as

    a pure minor scale with a lowered second scale step

    or a scale having the same key located a major 3rd below....E phrygian is the same key as C major
     
  3. Roy Vogt

    Roy Vogt

    Sep 20, 2000
    Nashville,TN
    Endorsing Artist: Kiesel, Carvin, Accuracy, Hotwire, Conklin Basses, DNA, Eden
    On the Dm7b5-G7b9-Cm cadence on Blue Bossa one solution is to play modes of C harmonic minor:
    D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C-D for Dm7b5
    G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F-G for G7b9 (G Phrygian Major)
    C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C for Cm (it will even work for Cm7 because the B is a 1/2 step leading tone into the Root)
    This was a favorite strategy of Dizzy Gillespie. Check out his playing on Night in Tunisia.
    The Melodic and Harmonic Minor Scales came into use in the Common Practice Period (Baroque, Bach, etc.) so that they could reflect the V7-i cadence.
     
  4. Billnc

    Billnc

    Aug 6, 2009
    Charlotte NC
    The formula for phrygian major is
    1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7 and is the 5th mode of harmonic minor.

    You are correct on phrygian minor.
     
  5. i wonder if there is another more common name for it .....the ron middlebrook book makes no mention of it by name.......the third is raised

    G to G is G Ab B natural C D Eb F G
     
  6. Roy Vogt

    Roy Vogt

    Sep 20, 2000
    Nashville,TN
    Endorsing Artist: Kiesel, Carvin, Accuracy, Hotwire, Conklin Basses, DNA, Eden
    I just think of it as the 5th mode of C Harmonic Minor myself.
    Jimmy Haslip calls it the Spanish Scale in the Melodic Bass Library. Some people call it a Spanish Phrygian Scale or Phrygian Dominant Scale.
    "Some people call it a Kaiser Blade I call it a Sling Blade-Mmm-hmm"-Billy Bob Thornton :D
     
  7. Billnc

    Billnc

    Aug 6, 2009
    Charlotte NC
    Calling them by one simple name we all understood would destroy art as we know it!
     
  8. think i'm gonna go out for soma them french fried taters mmmm hmmm
     
  9. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    Yeah, but I wasn't talking about that....
     
  10. CDweller

    CDweller

    Oct 24, 2009
    Clearwater, FL
    I'm gonna have to 'shed a little on the ideas you guys have so graciously set forth. I'd also offer up this for comment. The chord in question, according to two different versions of the Real Book (one about 12 years old, and the latest revision 6) is either a G7 or a G7 #5(#9). The notes in the melody during this measure are a Bb for two beats, and an Ab and G for an eighth note apiece, the G tied over into the following measure's C-chord.

    The Bb in the melody is the diatonic minor third that the progression calls for. While it's not in the G7 chord, the minor third is still being heard. It gets more interesting, of course.

    This Bb is functioning as a #9, which it is not academically, but is enharmonically. Now we've got the Jimi Hendrix chord- Dom7(#9) (ie the chords showcased by Jimi in Foxey Lady and Purple Haze- you can see that Jimi, like Jaco, was heavily influenced by his experience working in horn bands, what with all the lovely dissonances horn guys make work).

    I'm not clear on how the #5 works, or why it's included in the chord G7#5 (#9). There's no D# (the #5) in the melody. I am still just looking at this song on paper, and need to lay down the chords on piano or guitar, which I suck at even worse than bass, and then play bass over that. I would also think it would be cool to actually play a G-7 on the piano or whatever over this measure under scrutiny, and play the head using a B natural instead of Bb. You still have the same notes, but voiced differently.

    Thanks for putting up with my stumbling along here.

    BTW- I'm going to Jeff's school on Monday--YES!
     
  11. Billnc

    Billnc

    Aug 6, 2009
    Charlotte NC
    It's just an alteration but is enharmonic to Eb which is in the key itself. Enjoy the school!
     
  12. Stumbo

    Stumbo Wherever you go, there you are. Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 11, 2008
    Song Surgeon slow downer. https://tinyurl.com/y5dcuqjg
  13. Roy Vogt

    Roy Vogt

    Sep 20, 2000
    Nashville,TN
    Endorsing Artist: Kiesel, Carvin, Accuracy, Hotwire, Conklin Basses, DNA, Eden
  14. Roy Vogt

    Roy Vogt

    Sep 20, 2000
    Nashville,TN
    Endorsing Artist: Kiesel, Carvin, Accuracy, Hotwire, Conklin Basses, DNA, Eden
    It would be cool if you posted on here or even started a new thread and blogged your week at Players School.
    Give Jeff my best regards. :)
     
  15. The Growler

    The Growler

    Jan 26, 2008
    YES!

    Great idea.
     
  16. CDweller

    CDweller

    Oct 24, 2009
    Clearwater, FL
    Roy- let me know if you prefer me to post of my experience at Jeff's here or in another thread. I don't know how much I'll be able to journal- I expect to be full on with the assignments.
     
  17. Roy Vogt

    Roy Vogt

    Sep 20, 2000
    Nashville,TN
    Endorsing Artist: Kiesel, Carvin, Accuracy, Hotwire, Conklin Basses, DNA, Eden
    Why don't you post a link here and create a new thread. Whatever and whenever you can would be great. You could even just write about your week after it's done.
    I'm totally jealous, BTW! :D
     
  18. Yools

    Yools

    Jul 24, 2009
    Deepinaharta, TX
    That's a great idea, and I think you should give it a relatively generic title like "The Player's School of Music Thread" and make it open to anyone who goes there or has gone there. That way we'll have a single thread with PSoM experiences from a lot of people.

    -Y
     
  19. Peter Weil

    Peter Weil Seeker of The New Supporting Member

    Mar 29, 2000
    Edinburgh, Scotland
  20. Roy Vogt

    Roy Vogt

    Sep 20, 2000
    Nashville,TN
    Endorsing Artist: Kiesel, Carvin, Accuracy, Hotwire, Conklin Basses, DNA, Eden
    Cool-Thanks! :)
     

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