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Running 2 Ampeg 810s on either side of the Drum riser.

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by Matt_784, Mar 21, 2016.


  1. Matt_784

    Matt_784

    Mar 21, 2016
    So recently my band has been playing shows where the drums and the vocals only get mixed into the FOH. Bass and Guitars are not put in the mix so our lead guitarist suggested that we set up or backline with 2 810s on either side of the drum rise and 2 412 cabinets on each side which makes a total of 4 412s. I have never ran 2 810s before and Im curious about the sound. Does the spread of the cabs sound full or will I get a louder volume? I have seen many bands do this and many say that this certain setup can cause phase cancellation. Do any of you run this type of setup? If so how does the sound compare to just running 1 810. Thanks.
     
    EASonBass likes this.
  2. Way over my head, but, welcome.
     
  3. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    Ft.Worth/Dallas
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    What are you planning to power both these sets of cabs with..
    all other things aside, you need to make sure that they are powered correctly (impedance matched, etc.) or may let the smoke out of your amp!
     
  4. Callused Finger

    Callused Finger

    Feb 22, 2007
    New York
    2 810's? What a giant pain.
    You could wire both 4ohm cabs together in series and it will be an 8ohm load on the amp. Less wattage but you have twice the speaker area and it's more efficient.

    Would they be willing to put bass and guitar through the FOH if their onstage volume was quieter?
     
  5. Matt_784

    Matt_784

    Mar 21, 2016
    I have an Ampeg svt 4 pro that Im going to power the cabs in parallel. From what I was told, this head works well with both cabs.
     
    sub-commandante likes this.
  6. Matt_784

    Matt_784

    Mar 21, 2016
    I could try asking the sound guy if he could put us in the mix (which is what I prefer cause I could just run a sansamp direct), but the band insists that we go with this type of setup so I hope for the best.
     
  7. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    Ft.Worth/Dallas
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    It's unclear what you mean by "power the cabs in parallel".
    I assume that means you plan to run the amp "bridged" to get the wattage and daisy-chain one speaker to the next? That's the simplest approach to hooking up parallel.
    IF you do that, with that head, you'll FRY IT as that will be a [nominal] 2-Ohm load and outside it's capabilities.
    Most amps will not handle a 2-Ohm load in bridged mode.

    You CAN run out of both sides of the head and [separately] feed each cab 625w @ 4-Ohms (assuming the 8x10's are 4-Ohm) and assuming you have the speaker cables to reach the 2nd cab.. which SHOULD be plenty loud.. I say SHOULD 'cus you didn't state which style of music your band plays.

    The whole concept of doing what you are suggesting, then somehow expecting drums and vocals to somehow come out on top thru the PA.. is seriously flawed.. IME.
    Stick with what you've got and either upgrade your PA, or turn down your stage volume.
     
    sub-commandante likes this.
  8. Matt_784

    Matt_784

    Mar 21, 2016
    I plan on running out of both speaker Outputs on the head and feeding each cab separately. We are a hard punk band so I thought this set up would be good for this type of music. I've seen bass players use this set up and it seems fine to me.
     
  9. Bodeanly

    Bodeanly Supporting Member

    Mar 20, 2015
    Chicago
    If you're playing shows where only vocals and drums are running through the PA, I'm assuming the venues aren't over 500 (or so) capacity rooms? All I see dual 810 cabs doing is making the bass loud enough to make the guitars have to turn up, then the vocals and drums get louder (or not, depending on who's running sound). It won't sound any better. On the bright side, no one will know that it doesn't sound better because everyone will probably be deaf.
     
    Gabbs and s0c9 like this.
  10. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    Ft.Worth/Dallas
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    See a repeat of my comment above, below.
     
    LiquidMidnight likes this.
  11. If they are not placed the correct distance apart, you run the risk of destructive interference (areas of no bass, and other areas of booming bass).

    It is the same principle behind NOT separating your subs.
     
  12. derrico1

    derrico1 Supporting Member

    Apr 12, 2005
    Charlottesville, VA
    There are load-in issues, but also intereference issues from running two cabs spread out on stage. IME, better to run your main cab by you and the drummer, and supply musicians across stage with either a second cab or monitor. That second sound source should ideally be aimed back (rather than spill toward the audience), and its volume should be independent of your cab's volume. (Those who need it can get more or less bass on the far side of the stage w/o you needing to adjust your rig—or worry about adjusting the cross-stage satellite. Acoustically, a quieter 2nd source on stage will also create fewer and less severe alleys and nulls than two 810s blaring at equal volume.)
     
  13. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp

    Sep 18, 2012
    Omaha, NE
    Any PA that can handle drums should be able to handle bass and guitar too.
     
    wcriley and Bodeanly like this.
  14. Johnny Crab

    Johnny Crab ACME,QSC,Fame/Hondo/Greco/HELIX user & BOSE Abuser Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 11, 2004
    South Texas
    Did that for about a decade except we had a PA......
    VS one 8x10?
    A bit better, strange spread directly in front of the drum riser, same teardrop-shaped sound field when in front of the cabinet.

    I can't help you with the "Using two 8x10's instead of bass in the PA" thing.
    In the really-too-much-daze, one 8x10 plus one 18" folded cab(pushed by an Acoustic 370) were run on each side of the drum riser. Manager sometimes complained of hearing me a mile away when coming to a large club to see us.
     

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  15. tedious1

    tedious1

    Feb 14, 2014
    Honestly OP, don't bother. First physics doesn't care what genre you play, you violate it's rules, you pay it's price, but more to the point...

    The audience is unwashed, and they don't have view down 'cable alley.' If you don't give them a reason, they will listen with their eyes. So you roll up 2 full stacks and 2 fridges, they won't hear half the cabs they see, they will hear all the cabs they see, even though only half of them are doing any work. Why pay for a fridge when less than a $100 in materials will have people hearing what isn't there? And then proceeding to give you compliments on how 'full' your sound is. Actual cabs won't improve the illusion, and they'll just tempt you into plugging them in, and that's more likely than not going to force the audience to start listening with their ears and stop listening with their eyes. And the unwashed don't think about waveforms canceling, they just wonder how you can have so much gear and still sound like so much crap.

    So in short:
    Use the illusion, not your guitar player's delusion.
     
    Bullitt5135 and Bass_Pounder like this.
  16. Matt_784

    Matt_784

    Mar 21, 2016
    Hmm, good input. Yeah, Ill just stick to 1 810 and crank it up loud enough. Thanks.
     
  17. Silas Stingy

    Silas Stingy

    Feb 19, 2009
    U.K
    The only instances I have found when the mix has drums (not just kick drum) in the FOH but not the bass and guitar is when the amps are already too loud for the venue.
     
    wcriley and walterw like this.
  18. Bullitt5135

    Bullitt5135

    Nov 16, 2010
    SE Michigan
    I respect repect your idea of having the fridge and stacks on stage for visual effect (as well as volume for "feeling" the music you're playing), but not at the risk of producing poor sound. As others have said, you might run into phase cancellation problems if you spread the cabs. Not to mention... how is the band going to hear the vocals over that wall of sound? The wall of sound is going to fold back into the mics and muddy up the vocals even more. It's a vicious cycle. My former band/BL insisted on vocals-only PA, and we had chronic problems hearing each other, as well as uneven FOH.

    OP mentions that there's a sound guy. Why wouldn't you just put the guitars and bass into the PA, assuming the sound guy is capable of mixing a full band? Seems like you could avoid a lot of headaches while improving sound quality both on-stage and FOH. If the look of having two fridges is important, I like the idea of the 2nd one being a dummy cab. Easier to haul.

    And please tell me you're using high-quality ear plugs if you are going with the stadium setup! :woot:
     
  19. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009
    alpha-music.com
    just so.

    if there's enough PA to carry the drums, then it's enough to carry the bass too and you shouldn't have to turn up any louder than the drummer is so you can hear yourself.

    if there isn't enough PA to really carry the drums then you shouldn't turn up any louder than the drummer is or the mix will be off out front.

    therefore, you shouldn't turn up louder than the drummer is. (not saying you have to turn down to "easy listening", loud rock is loud rock; you just don't need to blow past the rest of the band and ruin the mix, and 1 8x10 with good power behind it is plenty.)

    also, the split cab thing could give you the worst of both worlds, low end that sums right in the middle where the drummer is (drowning him in bass and making him play even louder) and cancels over to the side right where you are, so you actually hear it less.
     
    Downunderwonder and CatSquare like this.
  20. Matt O

    Matt O

    Feb 19, 2013
    The Mitten
    I used to run 2x810 and putting them on either side of the drummer usually caused sound problems. Running them side by side or stacked laying down is much better. A single SVT can power it, but two heads is better for that set up.

    Also, there is no way I would want an 8x12 stack of guitar on my side of the stage. Nnnooo thank you.
     

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