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Running a DAW live?

#61
DuraMorte said:
.......
However, my dad doesn't want to take it out to gigs, because it's "unreliable". His thought is that it will inevitably crash, leaving no sound.
.......

So, my question to my fellow TB'ers is, have you ever played or seen a show that was done the way I'm talking about?
If so, how were the results?
All opinions welcome!
Click to expand...

Haven't read all answer but here's mine:

I'm with your dad and wouldn't do that either.

To have playable latency , the buffer has to be VERY low putting a lot of strain on the CPU.

I use a MOTU Traveler mk3 wich has a stand alone mixer in it, meaning if the CPU crashes , the show still go on.
There is a software called "cuemix FX" with enables you to manipulate the mixer.

All inputs and outputs have comp/limiter , 6 band FULL parametric EQ + HPF+LPF. With that type of EQing , you won't need any gates :)

MOTU offers different models with different configurations to fill your needs.
My traveler has 8 Analog I/O , 4 preamps , 16 ADAT I/O , AES-EBU , S-PDIF , MIDI I/O

Note that only mk3 device offers FX , there is no FX in older mk2
 
#62
fokof said:
Haven't read all answer but here's mine:
I'm with your dad and wouldn't do that either.
To have playable latency , the buffer has to be VERY low putting a lot of strain on the CPU.
I use a MOTU Traveler mk3 wich has a stand alone mixer in it, meaning if the CPU crashes , the show still go on.
There is a software called "cuemix FX" with enables you to manipulate the mixer.
All inputs and outputs have comp/limiter , 6 band FULL parametric EQ + HPF+LPF. With that type of EQing , you won't need any gates :)
MOTU offers different models with different configurations to fill your needs.
My traveler has 8 Analog I/O , 4 preamps , 16 ADAT I/O , AES-EBU , S-PDIF , MIDI I/O
Note that only mk3 device offers FX , there is no FX in older mk2
Click to expand...

For starters, please note that my preliminary test turned out great, in that the latency was perfectly acceptable. With a quad-core i3, I would hope so.
So there's nothing to worry about there.

Secondly, I already mentioned that I would love to have an 896mk3; MOTU makes great stuff.

But the point is moot, as he put the ultimate veto on my idea. So, I'm going to be mixing his band on an ancient Peavey board with a cheap verb, a few EQ's, and two channels of compression. I'll make it work, but I'm going to hate every second of it.
Oh well... I guess you really can't teach an old dog new tricks. :/
 
#63
DuraMorte said:
For starters, please note that my preliminary test turned out great, in that the latency was perfectly acceptable. With a quad-core i3, I would hope so.
So there's nothing to worry about there.

Secondly, I already mentioned that I would love to have an 896mk3; MOTU makes great stuff.

But the point is moot, as he put the ultimate veto on my idea. So, I'm going to be mixing his band on an ancient Peavey board with a cheap verb, a few EQ's, and two channels of compression. I'll make it work, but I'm going to hate every second of it.
Oh well... I guess you really can't teach an old dog new tricks. :/
Click to expand...

That's too bad. I just read through this thread and I was looking forward to the result.

I can't believe no one has mentioned SAC yet? It is a DAW design to do exactly what you want. Would be about a $1000 investment, so if you could get it working in Reaper, then just as well. Reaper is so system friendly and stable that I'm sure it would work.

Don't completely give up though, see if there is another band locally that you could mix for and then have dad come and listen. Bet he'll be begging for the digital mix.

Robby
 
#66
I already said; he overruled the rest of the band and myself, and I'm going to be mixing them on hardware. Completely lame, especially since he knows it can work. But I don't hold it against him; he's uncomfortable assuming that risk, so I'm going to keep him happy. Especially since I could use the cash.
 
#67
I've been doing live sound and recordings for a while. From back in the day when a mono or stereo mix went to a reel to reel or cassette machine.

Undoubtedly an outdoor gig turned out better.

A number of years ago I got a presonus firepod and more recently daisy chained it with a fire studio for 16 channels. Basically ran into the interfaces and then out to the FOH board. Sometimes the board would have on board compression and effects, but of course the raw tracks went to the DAW first.

I just got a Presonus SL 24.4.2 And I'm truly excited about the possibilities!

On a side note, I'm considering getting some isolation panels for the drum kit. I recently saw a PBS music special were you could really hear the musical space by having stage volume under control.

It will still be a "Live" recording, but the eq etc can be done on the recording later.

Good luck and don't fret about using the old stuff, capture the performance and try to keep the "feeling" alive!

Cheers,

Dave
 
#68
dscott11 said:
I've been doing live sound and recordings for a while. From back in the day when a mono or stereo mix went to a reel to reel or cassette machine.
Undoubtedly an outdoor gig turned out better.
A number of years ago I got a presonus firepod and more recently daisy chained it with a fire studio for 16 channels. Basically ran into the interfaces and then out to the FOH board. Sometimes the board would have on board compression and effects, but of course the raw tracks went to the DAW first.
I just got a Presonus SL 24.4.2 And I'm truly excited about the possibilities!
On a side note, I'm considering getting some isolation panels for the drum kit. I recently saw a PBS music special were you could really hear the musical space by having stage volume under control.
It will still be a "Live" recording, but the eq etc can be done on the recording later.
Good luck and don't fret about using the old stuff, capture the performance and try to keep the "feeling" alive!
Cheers,
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Dave.
My real goal wasn't necessarily to capture the performance; I just wanted to use my VST effects live. Recording was completely optional.
Digital mixing is the way of the future; soon, there won't be any analog mixing desks left. Everything will be digitized; there will be bar bands running 24 channels through a digital snake, which only requires a run of CAT-5, as opposed to the huge, bulky snakes most guys use now. We won't need huge racks of outboard gear to get top-notch sound; we'll have every effect we need at our fingertips, on a channel-by-channel basis. No more insert or patch cables, no more tweaking the wrong knob in a dimly-lit rack unit.
Sound quality won't be decided by the gear, just the ability of the guy behind the board. And I can't wait.
 
#69
I couldn't agree more about going digital, reducing outboard gear and getting the most out of your rig.

That's why I'm trying out the presonus... all the processing is done in the box, powered mains and monitors. Standard snakes for now, but as budget permits, digital snakes are cool!

Working on power distribution next....

Keep us posted!

Cheers,

Dave
 
#70
DuraMorte said:
I already said; he overruled the rest of the band and myself, and I'm going to be mixing them on hardware. Completely lame, especially since he knows it can work. But I don't hold it against him; he's uncomfortable assuming that risk, so I'm going to keep him happy. Especially since I could use the cash.
Click to expand...


For what it's worth....

My band (trio) all fully understand the gear.... are willing to put the time into setting it up.

For small bar gigs, we'll always go to an analog slider type desk first... just the right tool for some gigs.

-----

In your case, I'd bet your dad is right. I'd probably have vetoed it too.

OPINION...
Set it all up test it, cable it... lock it down... then do the install at a practice (not a gig)

You'll be amazed at how much time setting up automation takes.

Tim
 
#72
MNAirHead said:
You'll be amazed at how much time setting up automation takes.
Click to expand...

Automation? What automation? I never said anything about automation; I wanted to mix live, with nice VST effects instead of cheap analog gear.

I can understand sticking to a small analog setup if the digital one can't be made to work reliably. But to not even try seems to me to be an irrational fear of the unknown, as opposed to a reasonable, informed decision to opt out.
Is that wrong of me?
 
#73
DuraMorte said:
Automation? What automation? I never said anything about automation; I wanted to mix live, with nice VST effects instead of cheap analog gear.

I can understand sticking to a small analog setup if the digital one can't be made to work reliably. But to not even try seems to me to be an irrational fear of the unknown, as opposed to a reasonable, informed decision to opt out.
Is that wrong of me?
Click to expand...

Automation...
Setting up all of your VSTs/eqs/compressors etc... then picking tracks... then locking them down.. then cabling them etc... it all takes times.

IF you'd plan on showing up every time and starting over, it would not be automation (just an aggrevation to the band)

Your Quote....
I can understand sticking to a small analog setup if the digital one can't be made to work reliably. But to not even try seems to me to be an irrational fear of the unknown, as opposed to a reasonable, informed decision to opt out.
Is that wrong of me?

2 Things...

1- Build it first then test it...

2- Band Politics... the tone of your reply (if like this in reality) is not one that I'd follow leadership from... You've not discussed a backup (emergency) plan... it's negative toward your band members.

(meant with all positive energy possible)

It may be time to consider PR and salsesmanship before VSTs.... putting down the band's opinions or perceptions is not the way to change their mind.

.....your post does give the impression that you've never lived through the gig from technical hell.... maybe your band mates have?
 
#74
Dumb very specific question.

What exact signal chain are you proposing?

Start from the microphone to the mains... all cables... all connectors... all outputs.. all software... all rewires etc.

For the life of me I can't think of boxes beyond the Motu-ish that have send/receive to a DAW... someone must havwe a VST management software that can help bypass ableton etc.,
 
#75
MNAirHead said:
Dumb very specific question.
What exact signal chain are you proposing?
Start from the microphone to the mains... all cables... all connectors... all outputs.. all software... all rewires etc.
For the life of me I can't think of boxes beyond the Motu-ish that have send/receive to a DAW... someone must havwe a VST management software that can help bypass ableton etc.,
Click to expand...

The only dumb question is the one you don't ask!

Signal path goes as follows:

Mics >
cables >
snake >
Alesis iO26/Behringer ADA8000 (16 inputs, conversion to digital) >
Reaper (all mixing takes place here) >
iO26/ADA8000 (8 independent outputs, convert back to analog) >
snake >
powered speakers/sub amp & speakers/monitor amps and speakers.

All crossover work would occur atthe digital level.
 
#76
DuraMorte said:
The only dumb question is the one you don't ask!

Signal path goes as follows:

Mics >
cables >
snake >
Alesis iO26/Behringer ADA8000 (16 inputs, conversion to digital) >
Reaper (all mixing takes place here) >
iO26/ADA8000 (8 independent outputs, convert back to analog) >
snake >
powered speakers/sub amp & speakers/monitor amps and speakers.

All crossover work would occur atthe digital level.
Click to expand...

I understand what you're trying to do ... I'd guess your band doesn't.

From an outsider's point of view, this looks like adding a bunch of confusion to the mix.... chances are many of the guys don't "get" computers and aren't happy with them.

-------

My chain? Mic>color coded Cable>Punch Block>snake>color coded mains (or subs)

this is what the band sees

The magic is all locked down and automated inside a "rack cube"..


-----

From your band's perspective, you're adding more links to the chain vs improving it.

I'd guess you may be the only one that understands what "arming" a track means... or what VST

You're probably speaking way over their interest level.

Still for small corner gigs, I'm using an analog all in one mixer to the powered mains.
 
#77
MNAirHead said:
I understand what you're trying to do ... I'd guess your band doesn't.
From an outsider's point of view, this looks like adding a bunch of confusion to the mix.... chances are many of the guys don't "get" computers and aren't happy with them.
-------
My chain? Mic>color coded Cable>Punch Block>snake>color coded mains (or subs)
this is what the band sees
The magic is all locked down and automated inside a "rack cube"..
-----
From your band's perspective, you're adding more links to the chain vs improving it.
I'd guess you may be the only one that understands what "arming" a track means... or what VST
You're probably speaking way over their interest level.
Still for small corner gigs, I'm using an analog all in one mixer to the powered mains.
Click to expand...

That's just the thing... The rest of the band doesn't care one iota what I do; as long as they sound good. And they were very pleased with the sound I was getting. The only naysayer is my dad. But whatever; I plan to start running my digital setup for other bands whenever I can. I've already worked out most of the kinks and issues. All I need is some speakers and monitors, and I'll be ready to rawk.
 
#79
MNAirHead said:
I totally understand...
I'd bet $5 that your dad is still concerned about "what if"
Quite sincerely I didn't do what you're describing for about a year after I started accumulating the gear.... the first few times were disasters.
Tim
Click to expand...

What caused the disaster? Lack of preparation? Lack of foresight/planning? Lack of backup plan?
I only ask because I want to know what to do to avoid disaster; I don't mind if the first few tries are lackluster, but I would like to avoid disaster. XD
 
#80
Overall...

Biggest thing was NOT having it just a few things to plug and go.

I've had laptop failures (yes with a backup)

Hardware/Software Blue Screeen

Power Surge (yes have a $$$$$ conditioner)

Was delayed and didn't have enough time to set everything up

Cabling that did not match a venue.

There are tons and tons of things that went on that were all honest and non-avoidable mistakes.

ONLY after I put the juice into engineering out all the pitfalls did it become easier -- This was the most time consuming and expensive part.... I had the PA setup for a few months in a warehouse and did fine tuning for a few hours every week.

-----

I don't doubt you're a rock star -- it sounds like your dad still hasn't gained faith in the system.

-----

In the enire band dynamic thing, it really sounds like they're asking for a simple analog mixer and roadie...
 

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