Sadowsky SA 200, is it THAT good?

[Wasnex]

I'm asking how does it sound compared to the SVT2. I've already searched and found the threads you mention. But didnt find the answers Im after. However reaching those guys might a good thing though.

I own vintage SVTs, an SVT8-Pro, and an SA200. The SVTs and SA200 are not similar. In my opinion the SA200 has about the most musical EQ you can find on a tube amp. The SVT's EQ is also very good though.

I can't say one amp is better than the other. Regardless of which amp I plug into, I think, "Ah it sounds awesome!" When I want the sound of an SVT I choose an SVT. The SA200 can not be dialed in for this sound IHMO. Likewise you can't make an SVT sound like an SA200. They each have a unique voice. The SA200 is one of the more powerful 200W tube heads, but it's not as loud as an SVT. I think @tombowlus is right about the SA200, he said something like, "Sadowsky really nailed the mids." I agree the mids are just perfect on this amp.

Here's one of tombowlus's post from an old thread I think you will find relevant:

When I am in the "mood for tube", I look for a head (or preamp/amp combination) that offers the harmonic content, hint of warmth, and musical midrange that I only seem to hear in tube amps, but also one that avoids some of the "pitfalls" I have heard in some tube amps, namely loose, slow and/or bloated low end, truncated highs (which is weird to me, as some tube amps have all kinds of high end), and a general bluriness or lack of clarity/articulation. The good news is that you can, indeed, get all of this (and more!) from an all tube head. My absolute favorite all-tube head is the Sadowsky SA200. It nails every positive that I talked about, and avoids every pitfall (in fact, it turns some potential "weaknesses" into strengths). But, my V8 sounds very nearly as good in clean mode, and goes on to offer a range of very usable, very nice overdriven tones. Plus, the V8 is monstrously powerful, and it's volume/headroom capabilities go far beyond that of the SA200 (or most other heads, tube or SS, for that matter). One interesting observation is that neither of these has extensive midrange control, but yet, they have drop dead awesome mids. Go figure.

As for the SVT, I prefer vintage units, and a friend of mine let me borrow his vintage SVT head and 8x10 for a while. Driven fairly hard (75% or more), I find this tone to be highly addicting, and just about the perfect growl/grit for rock-n-roll, but still very dynamic and clear. However, in my experiences with both the head and the 8x10, neither could really capture that same vibe at lower volume settings (and by comparison, the SA200 and V8 are able to give you their best tones at a variety of volume settings). Still, IMHO, the SVT is the best at what it does, and I can't quite cop that SVT vibe with any other head.

Weight? Not an issue for me, really. I expect that an all-tube head, with some really beefy transformers, is going to weigh a fair bit.

Modern preamp design? Well, first off I think that just what constitutes a "modern preamp design" is a matter for some debate, in and of itself. I have my share of preamps, and for the most part, I am always happy to have one or more band(s) of parametric EQ on hand - especially for upright gigs. But, now that I have "fine tuned" my amps, cabs, and basses (and the various combinations thereof), I find that I really don't use much EQ. Sometimes, EQ can screw up your tone more than help it. I'm not opposed to a powerful EQ, but I like it to be bypassable, if possible, and usable (when necessary). But above all, it needs to sound "musical." This sort of sounds like a cop out, and I guess maybe it is, but when I play with some EQ's, it seems like I'm throwing darts blindfolded, and I don't know what I'm going to hit. Whereas with other EQ's (the SA200's tone controls come to mind), it seems like I can't dial in a "bad" tone no matter what I do. All in all, I'm not sure how helpful this paragraph has been...

One final thought on versatility. As mentioned, I have found that the SVT (and some other tube heads, to be sure) seem to sound their best at a given volume, but aren't so hot at other volume settings. The ability to deliver excellent tones at a variety of volume settings is important to me, and something I have come to look for in tube heads. Second, if an all-tube head is to offer overdrive/distortion, then I am also looking for a wide range of usable tones. This is also a somewhat rare characteristic, IME. And one more comment on overdrive, I would love it if someone would offer an overdrive (either onboard or as a standalone unit) which allows you to blend in clean lows with the full range overdriven tone. Ideally, I'd also like to have control over the low-pass frequency of the clean signal. An EE friend of mine and I came up with a SS overdrive mockup that did just this, and boy howdy! does this approach sound good! IMHO, of course.

I guess that's it for now. I'm sure to rant on later...

Tom.

 

[baxter_x]

Great input, thanks.
I feel the SA200 is more of a studio amp, not so much for heavy gigging. But I might be wrong. However, I really need one of these amps!

 

[Wasnex]

Great input, thanks.
I feel the SA200 is more of a studio amp, not so much for heavy gigging. But I might be wrong. However, I really need one of these amps!

IMHO you need to try an SA200. I think its a great gigging amp, but probably not for you due to the nature of your gigs. I don't think an SVT2 is a very good choice either though. My perception is you need way more headroom than is realistic with pretty much any single all tube head.

 

[baxter_x]

IMHO you need to try an SA200

I have no doubt about that! I really need one. I considered an SVT2 pro for a will, but I guess the SA200 will please me better. I'll use it for small and mid venues. And keep my Titans for festivals.

 

[Wasnex]

I have no doubt about that! I really need one. I considered an SVT2 pro for a will, but I guess the SA200 will please me better. I'll use it for small and mid venues. And keep my Titans for festivals.

Have you ever played a Trace Elliot V-Type (series I V4 and V6) or an Epifani UL902C? IMHO these amps can be dialed in to sound very similar to the SA200 with all tone controls at noon.

 

[baxter_x]

Very interesting! I tried once the V6 and it was really impressive. Never tried the Epifany though

 

[chaosMK]

What does the 4Pro give you that the Titan doesnt?

 

[baxter_x]

Warm massive low end. The Titan is close still. Why?
But I don't own the 4 pro anymore.

 

[Wasnex]

Very interesting! I tried once the V6 and it was really impressive. Never tried the Epifany though

The V6 is a bit bigger and rounder on the low end than either the SA200 or UL902C. I love the V6 because the lows are big, fat, and focused. The clarity and focus is also something I love about the SA200.

Between the three, the SA200 is by far the most versatile and has the most musical EQ. I find the UL902C's EQ the hardest to dial in, but I can set it to sound very similar to a SA200 with the (SA200's) tone controls set specifically to 12 o'clock. A bit surprising since the UL902C is pure solid state. The V6's EQ is the least powerful of the three, but I just love the way this amps sounds.

 

[baxter_x]

I love the V6 because the lows are big, fat, and focused.

That was exactly my experience with it. Super fat and warm without any mud.

 

[jsbarber]

The SA200 initially went out of production over a decade ago. Then, about 2 years ago there was a re-release in Europe of an initial run, with a US launch to follow. The US launch was cancelled, and since the European batch sold out it has been globally unavailable. With only two sold used in the past 5 years on TB, finding one would be a challenge.

For those who are interested, Roger just commented that he is recommending the KT88 for replacing the power tubes. Tom B. has indicated he will give this a try, when he gets some time. Many of us have not wanted to mess with perfection, and have thus avoided tube rolling, so we are anxious to hear what he has to say.

 

[Wasnex]

The SA200 initially went out of production over a decade ago. Then, about 2 years ago there was a re-release in Europe of an initial run, with a US launch to follow. The US launch was cancelled, and since the European batch sold out it has been globally unavailable. With only two sold used in the past 5 years on TB, finding one would be a challenge.

For those who are interested, Roger just commented that he is recommending the KT88 for replacing the power tubes. Tom B. has indicated he will give this a try, when he gets some time. Many of us have not wanted to mess with perfection, and have thus avoided tube rolling, so we are anxious to hear what he has to say.

A significant portion of the first production run were sent to Japan and the last couple of amps I have seen sell were shipped from Japan to either the US or Europe. There is an internal switch that allows the amp to be used in each market. Amps set up for US or Japan use a 10A main fuse. Amps set up for Europe use a 5A fuse. To setup the amp for a different voltage, set the switch to the proper position, chain the main fuse if required, check the bias, and the amp is ready to go.

 

[Lemon]

That said, your statement that ALL SMPS amps are yadda yadda yadda is the kind of problematic statement that causes issues on TB. Have you actually played every single SMPS implementation out there? Since 100% of large stages are now bass through SMPS mains, are we consigned to whatever terrible tone universe you seem preoccupied with?
Not dissing your enthusiasm for the SA200; but, appropriate perspective is important. There actually are some very nice SMPS amps out there. FWIW.

I didnt yadda yadda, I wrote most have
have a nervous touch.

I actually owned several and i still own and use a Labgruppen IPD2400.

Most of those amps filter noise way to low, reason being the filtering, which is technically complex and expensive, at least it was. So if you connect F.E. a Nord Piano it sounds dead and lifeless, in one word: terrible.
As soon as you plug the same Piano same sound same settings in to the Sadowsky, it sounds very good. The Lab sounds pretty good but still has that touch I personally dont like.
Stage Subs dont have that problem because the re low passed at 18 or 24dB per octave around 50Hz, where our amps are much closer to a fullrange system. Cutting above 20kHz, cuts the hamonic content, thats why it becomes lifless.
Because pretty much all the Class D amps work that way, it isnt the SMPS or the Class D amp which is the problem, its the filtering for high frequency noise you get from that technology. The better the filter, the better the amp. the reason why they dint come out on a large scale after it was invented was the cost of the filtering.
if the filter is really good a conventional amp has no dice.

 

[Lemon]

The SA200 is one of the more powerful 200W tube heads, but it's not as loud as an SVT. I think @tombowlus is right about the SA200, he said something like, "Sadowsky really nailed the mids."
:

The Sadowsky seems not that loud because by design it cant overdrive the output tubes like a SVT any many other tube amps do. Its was designed, to get the highest and cleanest output possible.

The harmonics are very clean, if you use a Cali76 with a Transformer and tap the high gain Transformer out, before the amp, ratio on 4 the attack fastest, release longest and very little compression (peaks well below 10), you can drive it very slightly in to compressing. Thats only possible, because that way you squash the transients, which usually would not allow this.
you would hear the transformer cough, before you get anywhere close to compression.

As for te Mids, granted you use EL34 and the right preamp tubes, thats exactly where this thing out shines many amps by miles.

With my AC5 the difference between my Read Purtity and Lab Combination and the SA200 on the same cab, is amazing.
The Read/Lab is very nice, but the Sadowsky puts tons more detail in it and gets that bass extremely alive.

I tried all the good stuff from GloKla HeartRock and Sky, AER Hellborg Pre, you name it, there was non of them getting those 3D mids.

The only thing im struggeling with is the cab.
Most modern cabs have a to are to lowbass
A tube amp has a pretty low damping factor, Modern Mosfet amps have superior damping factors, compared to a Tubemonster.
ClassD amps are even better.
That means that the speaker can have less damping.
Bassreflex speakers have some areas in the spectrum with no damping at all. Modern Cabs actually speaker chassis in general, dont have a strong damping factor, because that also reduces the bass.

Ok !
Great lets buy a closed one then, well unfortunately, depending on how well the speaker was designed, that works for 4string basses, but with a 5 you have a steeply declining low end from E down if not the A.
And on top of that you have quite some less dBs, meaning less output sensitivity.
We dont want that with a SA200 !
Cant have it all, damn "≠¿≠#"±∂ªº∆"


If you like fullrange with a five string this dosent cut it without a closed 15" below the closed 4X10.

If you cut the lows anyway, it might work but its bordeline.


The very good thing with a closed speaker is, you dont have out of phase mids, which would fit the idea behind the SA200.
Yeah !


Ok so the drummer has to calm down some
(Im allowed to make that kind of joke, Im a also a drummer)

I tried the closed 6x10 berg, sounded really good, but the lowend drops way to early.
Tried the closed markbass 6x10 same problem as the Berg.
I some guy which has a SA200 says,
the DB 2x12 Aggie sounds good.
I tried the DB4x10, i didnt like the response, kind a sluggish.
My guess, to much air for those chassis.
Tried the Eden 2x12, was good, but not mine
Maybe i should try the GloKla 2x12.

Tried quite some more cabs, but one thing is certain, that amp is choosey.

If you dont care about the phase and sluggish response, bassreflex works ok, the same cab just rumbles a lot more than with a transistor head.

I like if it is in phase

 

[bucephylus]

I didnt yadda yadda, I wrote most have
have a nervous touch.

I actually owned several and i still own and use a Labgruppen IPD2400.

Most of those amps filter noise way to low, reason being the filtering, which is technically complex and expensive, at least it was. So if you connect F.E. a Nord Piano it sounds dead and lifeless, in one word: terrible.
As soon as you plug the same Piano same sound same settings in to the Sadowsky, it sounds very good. The Lab sounds pretty good but still has that touch I personally dont like.
Stage Subs dont have that problem because the re low passed at 18 or 24dB per octave around 50Hz, where our amps are much closer to a fullrange system. Cutting above 20kHz, cuts the hamonic content, thats why it becomes lifless.
Because pretty much all the Class D amps work that way, it isnt the SMPS or the Class D amp which is the problem, its the filtering for high frequency noise you get from that technology. The better the filter, the better the amp. the reason why they dint come out on a large scale after it was invented was the cost of the filtering.
if the filter is really good a conventional amp has no dice.

I wrote yadda yadda, because I had and still have absolutely no idea what you mean by "nervous touch." Your example of hooking up some keyboard means next to nothing. You are still making claims about the class of amplifiers without having actual experience with many of them, thus suggesting a conclusion on your part, which is unsupported.

If what you write were true, then 100% of all current live acts on big stages would be "dead and lifeless....terrible;" because every single one of those is now using exclusively Class D for the mains. Perhaps, you actually feel that way. I simply disagree; which disagreement we can agree on.

 

[baxter_x]

At least you understand what he says ......

 

[Wasnex]

The Sadowsky seems not that loud because by design it cant overdrive the output tubes like a SVT any many other tube amps do. Its was designed, to get the highest and cleanest output possible.

I have two SA200s. One of the them will push the output tubes into distortion, and the other just gets more and more compressed. The amp that will push into distortion is slightly louder. I cant' say for sure, but perhaps the difference is the tubes. I haven't done any tube rolling on these amps; they both sound incredible. They are running stock Koch labeled output tubes, but I don't know if the small signal tubes are all stock.

Something to keep in mind, I read that Sadowksy was intent the amps would exceed their 200W power rating so they had to produce a minimum of (something like) 205W to meet factory spec. Spec for an SVT is 300W at 3% THD, but all of the bench tests I have read or seen on YouTube measure <265W at 5% THD.

My SVTs are definitely a bit stronger and louder than my SA200s, but it is not a huge difference if we are discussing clean power. I think the difference would be more significant under overload conditions as you suggest, so no argument, SVT wins if the contest is brute power. But I have several tube amps that will make an SVT beg for mercy, and don't get me started on solid state versus tube. My least powerful solid state amp is louder then my SVTs run flat out.

The reason to get an SA200 is not to satisfy a need for brute power...track down an SA200 if you're after sweet tone and a very functional and musical EQ. Also, the preamp does some nice drive that might suit your needs if you are into distortion...but it's not like the grind you get from an SVT.

 

[Wasnex]

The only thing im struggeling with is the cab.
Most modern cabs have a to are to lowbass
A tube amp has a pretty low damping factor, Modern Mosfet amps have superior damping factors, compared to a Tubemonster.
ClassD amps are even better.
That means that the speaker can have less damping.
Bassreflex speakers have some areas in the spectrum with no damping at all. Modern Cabs actually speaker chassis in general, dont have a strong damping factor, because that also reduces the bass.

Ok !
Great lets buy a closed one then, well unfortunately, depending on how well the speaker was designed, that works for 4string basses, but with a 5 you have a steeply declining low end from E down if not the A.
And on top of that you have quite some less dBs, meaning less output sensitivity.
We dont want that with a SA200 !
Cant have it all, damn "≠¿≠#"±∂ªº∆"


If you like fullrange with a five string this dosent cut it without a closed 15" below the closed 4X10.

If you cut the lows anyway, it might work but its bordeline.


The very good thing with a closed speaker is, you dont have out of phase mids, which would fit the idea behind the SA200.

I agree that amp/cab pairings are often important, especially with tube amps. I own several different cabs and none of them are sealed. Most of my amps sound really nice through a pair of home built Electro Voice TL405 cabs that I have loaded with EVM 18Bs.

I also have an Aguilar DB359, which many people have said sounds similar to the SA200. The SA200 works significantly better with some of my cabs than the DB359. In particular the SA200 sounds great through the TL405s, and the DB359's low end is uneven through these cabs. However, the DB359 sounds really good through a pair of Genz Benz 1288Ts.

I don't agree that you should avoid pairing ported cabs with tube amps, you just need to ensure the amp/cab pairing works well.

 

[keto]

KT88's a a big sounding punchy loud clean tube. I don't know if any bias adjustments would need to be done, I assume so, but if the circuit has the range to do it without mods, I bet it would pump this amp up nicely. Curious if it was ever tried @tombowlus

 

[Wasnex]

KT88's a a big sounding punchy loud clean tube. I don't know if any bias adjustments would need to be done, I assume so, but if the circuit has the range to do it without mods, I bet it would pump this amp up nicely. Curious if it was ever tried @tombowlus

KT88s definitely require more bias than EL34s. The amp has a bias potentiometer, but I don't know if it is ranged for KT88s without modification. If a mod is required, it probably just entails replacing one resistor to increase the available bias.

The bias procedure specifies measuring for 25-30mV across the cathode resistors regardless of tube type. I would not bias the amp too much hotter than this without consulting Koch Amps or getting guidance from Sadowsky, because the transformers and power supply may not be able to handle the extra load.

I wouldn't expect a huge increase of power by changing tube types, but I am curious if the sound changes much.