Sadowsky SA 200, is it THAT good?

[baxter_x]

I have two SA200s

Lucky man you are!

My least powerful solid state amp is louder then my SVTs run flat out.

And what is you least powerful SS amp?

 

[Wasnex]

Lucky man you are!


And what is you least powerful SS amp?

I am not sure luck has anything to do with it. Early onset dementia perhaps, since I paid over list price for both amps. I actually bought the 2nd amp twice on Ebay. The first auction was cancelled and the amp was relisted and sold multiple times over the next year or two with higher and higher prices. I never bid again and eventually everyone stopped bidding.

One day the seller put a buy-it-know price that was about $500 below the previous starting bid, and I pounced out of spite because I was sick of seeing the amp for sale. I was surprised when he actually sent the amp to me, but apparently a family member had become ill and the he needed cash.

There was drama with purchase of the first amp as well. It took over a month for the seller to ship; actually I had to work things out with his brother.

So in my experience, people don't tend to sell SA200s unless their situation is dire.

My least powerful solid state amp is a series I GK RB700 rated for 380W at 4 ohms.

 

[Rockbobmel]

KT88s definitely require more bias than EL34s. The amp has a bias potentiometer, but I don't know if it is ranged for KT88s without modification. If a mod is required, it probably just entails replacing one resistor to increase the available bias.

The bias procedure specifies measuring for 25-30mV across the cathode resistors regardless of tube type. I would not bias the amp too much hotter than this without consulting Koch Amps or getting guidance from Sadowsky, because the transformers and power supply may not be able to handle the extra load.

I wouldn't expect a huge increase of power by changing tube types, but I am curious if the sound changes much.

I had a PV VB-2 with EL34s and could not EQ out the baked in "guitar" sound. I swapped tubes out for 6CA7s and it hardly changed at all. A lot of people LOVED that amp and praised the "solid tone" but I could not find it. I traded it off first chance. Similar experience happened with a Mesa 400+. I even had one long ago that I sold off (kinda forgot and got wishful about the second one). I "ME", would shy away from the Sadowsky unless I played one and it changed my mind. Maybe with KT88s, it would have what I like. For reference, I love the Reeves C225 and Sunn 2000S because of their solid bottom. "Almost" a solid state type punch with tubes- if that makes any sense.

 

[Wasnex]

I had a PV VB-2 with EL34s and could not EQ out the baked in "guitar" sound. I swapped tubes out for 6CA7s and it hardly changed at all. A lot of people LOVED that amp and praised the "solid tone" but I could not find it. I traded it off first chance. Similar experience happened with a Mesa 400+. I even had one long ago that I sold off (kinda forgot and got wishful about the second one). I "ME", would shy away from the Sadowsky unless I played one and it changed my mind. Maybe with KT88s, it would have what I like. For reference, I love the Reeves C225 and Sunn 2000S because of their solid bottom. "Almost" a solid state type punch with tubes- if that makes any sense.

I have a Reeves 400. I agree it has a big and extended low end, but I think it 's a bit scooped in the low mids and pretty bright in the high mids. IMHO, the SA200 seems more even and neutral from top to bottom. I don't think the SA200 goes as deep as the Reeves, but you can dial in plenty of fat if you want.

I swapped Winged-C 6550 and JJ KT88 in my Aguilar DB359 and couldn't tell the difference. My Hiwatt DR201 is the version that runs six EL34s. It sounds pretty close to the Reeves 400 and IMHO nothing like the Sadowksy. I don't necessarily anticipate that running KT88s in an SA200 will change the character of the amp that much...someday I will find out though .


Sunn 2000S is on my bucket list, but I already have way too many amps .

 

[Rockbobmel]

"Sunn 2000S is on my bucket list, but I already have way too many amps ."

I was trying to check that out but your profile is empty.

The Sunn has something that the Reeves doesn't. The low end is even more pronounced than the Reeves. So much so, that I have to run it in the bright channel with the bass boost switch off and bass around 4 or 5! BUT, the Reeves outshines it in all other aspects. Especially brute power and headroom.
I have winged =C= 6550s in the Sunn and TAD KT88s in the Reeves.

PS, The 2000S has a 4 ohm (brown) tap wire that you can swap out for the 16 ohm.

 

[jsbarber]

Regarding use of the KT88, here is what Roger has to say:
The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...

KT88's a a big sounding punchy loud clean tube. I don't know if any bias adjustments would need to be done, I assume so, but if the circuit has the range to do it without mods, I bet it would pump this amp up nicely. Curious if it was ever tried @tombowlus

Tom has indicated, in the above referenced thread, that he intends to try the KT88 when he can find the time...

KT88s definitely require more bias than EL34s. The amp has a bias potentiometer, but I don't know if it is ranged for KT88s without modification. If a mod is required, it probably just entails replacing one resistor to increase the available bias.

The bias procedure specifies measuring for 25-30mV across the cathode resistors regardless of tube type. I would not bias the amp too much hotter than this without consulting Koch Amps or getting guidance from Sadowsky, because the transformers and power supply may not be able to handle the extra load.

I wouldn't expect a huge increase of power by changing tube types, but I am curious if the sound changes much.

Roger Sadowsky is now recommending the KT88 for power tube replacement, and made no mention of any required mod's.

 

[Wasnex]

Regarding use of the KT88, here is what Roger has to say:
The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...



Tom has indicated, in the above referenced thread, that he intends to try the KT88 when he can find the time...



Roger Sadowsky is now recommending the KT88 for power tube replacement, and made no mention of any required mod's.

Yep...FYI, I asked Roger some question about running KT88s earlier today:

The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...

 

[baxter_x]

@Wasnex, if I remember correctly, you have used the Mesa Titan. How does it compare against the SA200? Even if I doubt these two beasts don't have much in common

 

[Lemon]

I wrote yadda yadda, because I had and still have absolutely no idea what you mean by "nervous touch." Your example of hooking up some keyboard means next to nothing. You are still making claims about the class of amplifiers without having actual experience with many of them, thus suggesting a conclusion on your part, which is unsupported.

If what you write were true, then 100% of all current live acts on big stages would be "dead and lifeless....terrible;" because every single one of those is now using exclusively Class D for the mains. Perhaps, you actually feel that way. I simply disagree; which disagreement we can agree on.

Looks like you didnt really read it all I guess in times of cells thats normal... =)

Besides you cant compare cheap small consumer products with those amps used for stages, consumer grade do costs only a fraction.

I know hard to describe sound...
If you hook up a SA200 and Lab IPD to the same cab you will know what I mean.
Same with the Keyboard.
How do you know I have no experience ?
Thats just you asuming something.
just tto let you knoe, I got about 40 years of experience in this field =)

 

[agedhorse]

I didnt yadda yadda, I wrote most have
have a nervous touch.

I actually owned several and i still own and use a Labgruppen IPD2400.

Most of those amps filter noise way to low, reason being the filtering, which is technically complex and expensive, at least it was. So if you connect F.E. a Nord Piano it sounds dead and lifeless, in one word: terrible.
As soon as you plug the same Piano same sound same settings in to the Sadowsky, it sounds very good. The Lab sounds pretty good but still has that touch I personally dont like.
Stage Subs dont have that problem because the re low passed at 18 or 24dB per octave around 50Hz, where our amps are much closer to a fullrange system. Cutting above 20kHz, cuts the hamonic content, thats why it becomes lifless.
Because pretty much all the Class D amps work that way, it isnt the SMPS or the Class D amp which is the problem, its the filtering for high frequency noise you get from that technology. The better the filter, the better the amp. the reason why they dint come out on a large scale after it was invented was the cost of the filtering.
if the filter is really good a conventional amp has no dice.

Can you explain to us how a bass amp needs to reproduce >20kHz when the average bass speaker rolls off <5kHz and even with a tweeter rolls off at 15kHz?

Also, your comment about limited bandwidth may have been accurate 20 years ago but today's class D amps typically have a bandwidth of 50kHz-80kHz with a switching frequency of >500kHz.

Also, most subs used in pro audio are low passed at 80-100Hz and highpassed at 30-40Hz. What you neglected to mention is that the high frequency sections of PA are also class D and they have no problem accuracy reproducing high frequency at 20kHz with <0.01% THD.

Also, your comments about speaker damping does not accurately reflect reality. It is possible for a modern ported speaker to be underdamped, critically damped or overdamped depending on the intent and skill of the designer.

 

[Lemon]

I have two SA200s. One of the them will push the output tubes into distortion, and the other just gets more and more compressed. The amp that will push into distortion is slightly louder. I cant' say for sure, but perhaps the difference is the tubes. I haven't done any tube rolling on these amps; they both sound incredible. They are running stock Koch labeled output tubes, but I don't know if the small signal tubes are all stock.

Something to keep in mind, I read that Sadowksy was intent the amps would exceed their 200W power rating so they had to produce a minimum of (something like) 205W to meet factory spec. Spec for an SVT is 300W at 3% THD, but all of the bench tests I have read or seen on YouTube measure <265W at 5% THD.

My SVTs are definitely a bit stronger and louder than my SA200s, but it is not a huge difference if we are discussing clean power. I think the difference would be more significant under overload conditions as you suggest, so no argument, SVT wins if the contest is brute power. But I have several tube amps that will make an SVT beg for mercy, and don't get me started on solid state versus tube. My least powerful solid state amp is louder then my SVTs run flat out.

The reason to get an SA200 is not to satisfy a need for brute power...track down an SA200 if you're after sweet tone and a very functional and musical EQ. Also, the preamp does some nice drive that might suit your needs if you are into distortion...but it's not like the grind you get from an SVT.

The distortion could be the 1 stage driving second stage tho hard, or the whole chain driving the inverter tube to hard. It could also be the balance or both, its kind a tricky to adjust the balance right, at least with my analog scope it is. Depending in which way I looked at it, the crossover of the phases looked right but it wasnt.
it doesent make a huge difference but it does clearly make one.

Im guessing the tubes in you amp are the Koch EL34s ?

Last time measured it produced 214w.

Of course will a transistor always be louder if it has the same power rating, but unless it has a transformer output, it does not have "the wall of concrete sound" coming at you.
A very good example for that "concrete wall" sound would be a Dumble.

A transistor starts to sound thinner and sharper when turned up, and in the last 20 percent you feel and hear the saturation, transformer delivery curve knee. ( dont know that in english)
unless there is e overkill PS inside usually there isnt.
Not the ClassD, those usually just deliver until the limiter. The SA200 just gets through out tha Band equally louder.

Which ones makes em begging a Hexavalve, Mesa 400 or a DB728 ?

 

[bucephylus]

Looks like you didnt really read it all I guess in times of cells thats normal... =)

Besides you cant compare cheap small consumer products with those amps used for stages, consumer grade do costs only a fraction.

I know hard to describe sound...
If you hook up a SA200 and Lab IPD to the same cab you will know what I mean.
Same with the Keyboard.
How do you know I have no experience ?
Thats just you asuming something.
just tto let you knoe, I got about 40 years of experience in this field =)

One other thing; I also noticed that you were asking about cabs. I'm pretty sure that at least some of the Bergantino NV series would be great matches; and if I were rigging up an SA-200, I'd go straight for an NV610T. FWIW.

 

[Lemon]

KT88's a a big sounding punchy loud clean tube. I don't know if any bias adjustments would need to be done, I assume so, but if the circuit has the range to do it without mods, I bet it would pump this amp up nicely. Curious if it was ever tried @tombowlus

You better adjust the bias, and not it doesnt pump up the amp, at least not as much and not in a way as you would expect, unfortunately. Mods are not really possible with that supply.
The thing is, it works sort of, the KT88 runs in this amp outside of specs, so does the 6L6.

 

[agedhorse]

The distortion could be the 1 stage driving second stage tho hard, or the whole chain driving the inverter tube to hard. It could also be the balance or both, its kind a tricky to adjust the balance right, at least with my analog scope it is. Depending in which way I looked at it, the crossover of the phases looked right but it wasnt.
it doesent make a huge difference but it does clearly make one.

Im guessing the tubes in you amp are the Koch EL34s ?

Last time measured it produced 214w.

Of course will a transistor always be louder if it has the same power rating, but unless it has a transformer output, it does not have "the wall of concrete sound" coming at you.
A very good example for that "concrete wall" sound would be a Dumble.

A transistor starts to sound thinner and sharper when turned up, and in the last 20 percent you feel and hear the saturation, transformer delivery curve knee. ( dont know that in english)
unless there is e overkill PS inside usually there isnt.
Not the ClassD, those usually just deliver until the limiter. The SA200 just gets through out tha Band equally louder.

Which ones makes em begging a Hexavalve, Mesa 400 or a DB728 ?

The transformer better not saturate, not only does this not sound very good but gets thin and distorted as well as being very hard on output tubes.

 

[Lemon]

No, I read your post. It just contained a number of statements that seemed based on conjecture, and which I had difficulty putting into the context of a bass amp. The importance of frequencies above 20 kHz to the bass guitar sounds like a dog whistle to me.

the numbers are not right for a bass at first glancer yes, but there is always the harmonics right ?

But, I will admit that I have not performed high pass listening tests to know that one way or the other. I just know that my amps have plenty of high frequency harmonic content, more than enough for my needs.

Great =)

Also, your statement that the Class D FOH systems get by because the subs are low passed seems disconnected. But, what do I know?

If im not mistaking, you where talking about subs not me and as stated before, cant compare $500 consumer stuff out of the music store with a "$10000" classD Amp, right ?

Furthermore, your continued assertion of the effect of the high frequency filter on ALL Class D amp platforms still lacks actual experience.

Most consumer products and especially bass amps. possibly it became better lately, but when I last checked, it wasnt really that much better.

I'm glad you have owned a few. I suspect you haven't gigged the type I am using; but, could be wrong, since you haven't specified your exhaustive list. Heck, I've been playing for 48 years, and I haven't played them all.

I think I tried most of them at some point.
I have to admit though, the ones which I dint like anyways I dint try again.

Anyhow, look, I'm not really interested in some kind of dick measuring contest over amps. That got old a long time ago. I'm glad you like your SA-200. As I said, it certainly has a great rep. Enjoy it.

Me neither, and I do thanks. I just think its one of the best Amps I played so far.
Doesent mean at all that every one has to feel that way.

 

[Wasnex]

Yep...FYI, I asked Roger some question about running KT88s earlier today:

The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...

Roger's response....this is a quote from amp guru Blackie Pagiano

The bias circuit has enough range to adjust for kt88. I would set them around 30 milliamps. The range of currents somewhat depends on the actual set of tubes that are fitted. I recommend buying tubes that are "middle numbers" on the matching scale which should put you in a good range for setting bias in the stock circuit. My recommendation for kt88 was based on the elevated screen voltage which exceeds design maximum for el34's. This is fairly common , but Kt88's are rated to 600v on the screens which makes them happier in circuit and less prone to failure.

By the way, I noted that the original question switches from kt88 to 6550. I definitely do not recommend 6550 in circuit as their screen voltages are rated much lower.​

 

[Wasnex]

@Wasnex, if I remember correctly, you have used the Mesa Titan. How does it compare against the SA200? Even if I doubt these two beasts don't have much in common

I describe the Titan as a wrecking ball. Even at low volume it has the ability to incite sympathetic vibrations in nearby materials like no other amp I have played. The amp is voiced closer to the SVT, but has more emphasis in the low mids. I have seen the Titan described as the Gentlemans SVT, but I think of it as more of a caricature because the low mids are more extreme. Overall I would consider mine to be a relatively dark amp, and find it is a bit difficult to dial in, especially if you want smooth, sweet highs.

I think the SA200 is more smooth, even, and subtle over all. Think finesse as opposed to a raging beast. It's really hard to get a bad sound out of the SA200. Very easy to change the tonal balance without getting a crappy sound.

I would say the SA200 is a bit more open sounding and has a bit more extension on the highs and lows. They both have really good focus in the lows, but the SA200 has more clarity in the mids and highs.

Obviously the Titan has tons more power. I have tube amps that have been scoped at over 400W clean and the Titan will easily bury all of them, and then maybe smirk a little.

 

[Wasnex]

The distortion could be the 1 stage driving second stage tho hard, or the whole chain driving the inverter tube to hard. It could also be the balance or both, its kind a tricky to adjust the balance right, at least with my analog scope it is. Depending in which way I looked at it, the crossover of the phases looked right but it wasnt.
it doesent make a huge difference but it does clearly make one.

Im guessing the tubes in you amp are the Koch EL34s ?

Last time measured it produced 214w.

Of course will a transistor always be louder if it has the same power rating, but unless it has a transformer output, it does not have "the wall of concrete sound" coming at you.
A very good example for that "concrete wall" sound would be a Dumble.

A transistor starts to sound thinner and sharper when turned up, and in the last 20 percent you feel and hear the saturation, transformer delivery curve knee. ( dont know that in english)
unless there is e overkill PS inside usually there isnt.
Not the ClassD, those usually just deliver until the limiter. The SA200 just gets through out tha Band equally louder.

Which ones makes em begging a Hexavalve, Mesa 400 or a DB728 ?

Both of my amps are running Koch labeled tubes. I believe they are the same model as TAD EL34B-STR and Shuguang EL34B

I haven't scoped my amp to see where it is distorting. The schematic shows the Master Volume feeds a 12AX7 triode. The signal is taken off the plate and is fed to a phase inverter (PI) built from two triodes of a 6N1P. The output tubes are driven off the plates of the 6N1P.

Since the louder amp is the one that can be pushed to (post master) distortion, I suspect the issue is not the PI balance. I agree the difference could be the amp has one or more stronger small signal tubes though.

 

[Lemon]

Can you explain to us how a bass amp needs to reproduce >20kHz when the average bass speaker rolls off <5kHz and even with a tweeter rolls off at 15kHz?

Allright, and now ... ladies an gentlemen... Aged Horse a.k.a G....

Oups I better shut up

Hmm Overtones maybe ?
Or are you suggesting here frequencys below 5 or 15K dont have overtones ?
What if those amps cut way below 20k, actually Im pretty sure, it was.

Also, your comment about limited bandwidth may have been accurate 20 years ago but today's class D amps typically have a bandwidth of 50kHz-80kHz with a switching frequency of >500kHz.

I Agree Bandwith became better, that was what, 20(?) years ago. Probably more like 10
but still even the latest really expensive class D "high end" BASS HEADS didnt convince me.

Costs of developement is still there, meaning if it isnt necessary, its not done.
Anyone believing different should wake up, in times of shareholders value and mass consumption, everything is calulated down to the last penny if not fractions of a penny, dictated by the biggest in the game.

In other words, because of just one in a1000, its not worth the trouble (cost)

They just sound boring to me, kind a stiff, dead no life, not inspiring.
In a band context this, is most likey lost and for most people (anyway) not important. For me it is,
especially if i play a solo.

I still rather play a big mosfet or a tube.

Also, most subs used in pro audio are low passed at 80-100Hz and highpassed at 30-40Hz. What you neglected to mention is that the high frequency sections of PA are also class D and they have no problem accuracy reproducing high frequency at 20kHz with <0.01% THD.

I know that and I was not that accurate I know...
How .

As stated before a $500 piece of consumer junk, cant be compared to a 10 Grand FOH amp.
I want to see the FOH company buying 100 piece of a $10000 amp not making sure it is good.
And the company which would deliver $10000 pieces of consumer grade junk would not survive a day.

Also, your comments about speaker damping does not accurately reflect reality. It is possible for a modern ported speaker to be underdamped, critically damped or overdamped depending on the intent and skill of the designer.

Believe it or not I do know that territory in and out, from all kinds of Horn flares over TL to BR, Ripol, Bandpass and and and.

Most of the cabs these days are desiged to be loud and very important looooow.
That impresses the consumer in the store.
If ever, he will find out later what the caveat is.

if you ask me, the Intention or design goal is usually mostly high sales numbers.
We cant even be p!$$€d, they are also sitting in the vice being squeezed.

Of course low loud small is nice, but because of that there is almost no other type drivers anymore, unless you can custom order as a company.
But even that is over, many companys slap off shelf stuff inside its cheaper =)
Probably because there is no more free samples.

The worst part about those low loud small drivers is, most have a terrible phase behavior, if thrown in a reflex cab tuned to low loud small.
If you tune the cab for least phase there is NO BASS anymore, ha, great...
There are some nice exeptions but now its really hard to get hold of.

Tell me, when did you see the last time a bunch of reflex cabs, by design damped, that it reproduces "acurate" and more on the dry side ?

Yeah ok some are, but for a tubeamp you need at least a 410 better a 610 or even better 810.
With those cute little toy amps you dont need that, a 12 does it, at most a 2x12, but its just not the same.
The Read/Lab combination is good and its usable with out ear pain, also that is still not the same.

Anyway, didnt i write about TUBES amps wich have a really low damping factor ?
Then I threw in the cabs.

Try to find a cab today, with the internal volume of the SA410.
Ohh right, there is your (over) damping.

Most cabs these days are twice the volume, probably because there is not to many tube amps on the market and unfortunately such shallow cab would sound pretty thin with a non tube amp.

Its very simple, something like this has not enough volume in the market and therefore nothing like that is being produced.

Dont get me wrong, I know you have always something to say which is more acurate.
Since ancient times it has always been easier to take things out of context and and say its not accurate.

I was not here alooog time, and I actually came here to find me information about midi pickups, and thats what im going to do now.

 

[bucephylus]

sheesh