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Double Bass Sax player amplification in band rehearsal
- Thread starter dbass87
- Start date
For the longest time our sax player was playing through a 25 or 30 watt Crate amp. It worked great untill he started to experiment with pedals. Now he plays through a 50watt Crate.
I wouldn't suggest using hotrods. They're not miracle drum sticks that act like instant EQ, they're for more low key work that require a different timbre (like brushes, except harder). They're also notoriously fragile, considering they're a bundle of small sticks. You say he's a "hard hitting" drummer, so I'm betting his first pair will be toast after a few sessions.
Like everyone's said, you need to solve the real problem, which is telling him to quiet down on his own.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I don't wish to sound overly blunt or critical, but from what I've read so far, it sounds as though y'all are playing more than you're listening. If you don't pay attention to the sound of the band as a whole, with special emphasis on balance and dynamics, the notes you play will be irrelevant.
If current members are unwilling or unable to interact musically, you may have to replace them with grown-ups.
If current members are unwilling or unable to interact musically, you may have to replace them with grown-ups.
Here's something to consider: you're gonna damage your ears. Absolutely. In that little room with hard surfaces, all of you pounding away and asking for more? You're doomed...
I played in an 8 to 10 piece R&B/Funk/Worldbeat band for over 20 years. For maybe a decade of that time, we rehearsed once a week in a basement studio. I had 3 saxes and a trombone blasting into my face, and I had the drummer crashing into my left ear. We thought we needed that volume. We were wrong!
My left ear has damaged hearing. It's a noise gate kind of effect -- when sound pressure levels get over a certain threshold (not very loud, really) my hearing in that ear suddenly becomes full of distorted static. If the SPLs get over yet another level, I get full-blown pain in that ear. I am absolutely positive it was the time in that studio that burned up my ear.
Turn it the **** down. You don't need that at all, not for "edge", not for effect, not for nothing. The drummer is the guy that's gonna kill your ears.
I played in an 8 to 10 piece R&B/Funk/Worldbeat band for over 20 years. For maybe a decade of that time, we rehearsed once a week in a basement studio. I had 3 saxes and a trombone blasting into my face, and I had the drummer crashing into my left ear. We thought we needed that volume. We were wrong!
My left ear has damaged hearing. It's a noise gate kind of effect -- when sound pressure levels get over a certain threshold (not very loud, really) my hearing in that ear suddenly becomes full of distorted static. If the SPLs get over yet another level, I get full-blown pain in that ear. I am absolutely positive it was the time in that studio that burned up my ear.
Turn it the **** down. You don't need that at all, not for "edge", not for effect, not for nothing. The drummer is the guy that's gonna kill your ears.
I don't wish to sound overly blunt or critical, but from what I've read so far, it sounds as though y'all are playing more than you're listening. If you don't pay attention to the sound of the band as a whole, with special emphasis on balance and dynamics, the notes you play will be irrelevant.
If current members are unwilling or unable to interact musically, you may have to replace them with grown-ups.
No I agree with you... We do try to listen and feel where the others are going, but yes I feel that really any subtleties or nuance that I would like to convey is pretty much lost many times... And surely all that noise is masking what is really happening in terms of detail, and in the end, if we're in a quieter setting where we can really hear what each part sounds like entirely, it'll probably be a ways off from what we expected.
I've never had a problem with exceedingly loud drummers.
Guitarists, on the other hand...OY VEY!
This is one of the reasons why there's no guitar in my original music. Just bass, baby!
Guitarists, on the other hand...OY VEY!
This is one of the reasons why there's no guitar in my original music. Just bass, baby!
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
The problem is made even worse when EQ is determined player-by-player, without regard for the overall sound; when this happens, band members inevitably, and erroneously, try to solve band-wide EQ and balance problems by turning up their individual volume. Before you know it, the stage or rehearsal room is painfully loud, and people are still straining to hear. Use PA with the same mindset and you'll get the same awful sound, only louder.
If this sounds familiar, you've been in a band with inexperienced players who may have been shredding at home for years, but are completely unfamiliar with sound reinforcement principles, and the interpersonal dynamics and expectations of a pro-quality band. These same players usually haven't figured out the difference between making themselves sound good at home, and making an entire band sound good in public. It can be a fairly steep learning curve for folks who approach the process subjectively.
Pros do things because they work. You can learn a lot if you ask why the pros do what they do, and why it works for them. Not just the musicians - everyone involved in creating good sound. Do your homework and talk about specific goals and strategies as a band. One issue at a time. Focus on specific objectives. Keep things simple. Rehearse sound, not just music. Record rehearsals and listen to the playback as a group. Use a SPL meter to figure out just how loud you really are - a servicable model isn't expensive.
It's amazing how quietly individual musicians can play, and how well they can hear each other, when they pay attention to the big picture and make collaborative decisions. Reaching this level of proficiency is something that's expected if you want to be a pro, and it can improve the lives of casual musicians with little additional effort.
IMHO, YMMV, et al - my two cents...
If this sounds familiar, you've been in a band with inexperienced players who may have been shredding at home for years, but are completely unfamiliar with sound reinforcement principles, and the interpersonal dynamics and expectations of a pro-quality band. These same players usually haven't figured out the difference between making themselves sound good at home, and making an entire band sound good in public. It can be a fairly steep learning curve for folks who approach the process subjectively.
Pros do things because they work. You can learn a lot if you ask why the pros do what they do, and why it works for them. Not just the musicians - everyone involved in creating good sound. Do your homework and talk about specific goals and strategies as a band. One issue at a time. Focus on specific objectives. Keep things simple. Rehearse sound, not just music. Record rehearsals and listen to the playback as a group. Use a SPL meter to figure out just how loud you really are - a servicable model isn't expensive.
It's amazing how quietly individual musicians can play, and how well they can hear each other, when they pay attention to the big picture and make collaborative decisions. Reaching this level of proficiency is something that's expected if you want to be a pro, and it can improve the lives of casual musicians with little additional effort.
IMHO, YMMV, et al - my two cents...
If current members are unwilling or unable to interact musically, you may have to replace them with grown-ups.
+1
Playing that loud at practice is just pointless.
Your sax dude just needs to blow. This ain't the last time he isn't going to be heard. Is he a kid, or is he forty? Too many folks these days want their problems solved by electronics, when most of the time it can be solved by how you play. Is your drummer a
Bohnom, or a Cobb? Is he loud, or is he tasty? I came up in a jazz setting, and the saxes needed to know how to blow past the rhythm section.
Also, maybe you're too loud. My combo experience used the horns at regular natural outputs and it was the amplified instruments that needed to turn down to hear them in rehearsals and gigs. It might not be the saxes, it might be you.
Bohnom, or a Cobb? Is he loud, or is he tasty? I came up in a jazz setting, and the saxes needed to know how to blow past the rhythm section.
Also, maybe you're too loud. My combo experience used the horns at regular natural outputs and it was the amplified instruments that needed to turn down to hear them in rehearsals and gigs. It might not be the saxes, it might be you.
+1 to the prevailing opinions here: you have to be able to turn down for practice. It's just good practice for musicianship to play to the room that you're in. I always prefer to let the acoustic instruments set the volume - horns and drums - and adjust from there. This applies to stage sound with PA and monitors too.
If the drummer is the player that sets the 'noise floor' (hyuck hyuck) - my $0.02 is that the best drummers that I play with have a huge dynamic range, and can keep a really active, energetic texture going while playing quiet if necessary. With sticks, not hot rods (worst of both worlds IMHO). I've also been drumming for about 20 years, though I very rarely gig on drums anymore: started out as a punk rock basher, but by now I can hack a jazz jam. My experience is that you don't learn to play quiet unless you practice quiet.
If the drummer is the player that sets the 'noise floor' (hyuck hyuck) - my $0.02 is that the best drummers that I play with have a huge dynamic range, and can keep a really active, energetic texture going while playing quiet if necessary. With sticks, not hot rods (worst of both worlds IMHO). I've also been drumming for about 20 years, though I very rarely gig on drums anymore: started out as a punk rock basher, but by now I can hack a jazz jam. My experience is that you don't learn to play quiet unless you practice quiet.
There's an artistic point that hasn't been made yet: what's so impressive about "loud"? As an aspect of your overall artistic statement, it's pretty stale.
It's just that they have to think of keeping the same energy and expression, but just down several notches in volume, and leaving room for more effective dynamics, rather than LOUD- not quite as loud- LOUD
