Scale: timbre and BEAD (an end-all thread?)

[CrankyGypsy]

4-string 34" vs 35" scale: how these scales dictate timbre and are 35" scales really what everyone should use for BEAD tuning?

First, I do not want to simply rehash old conversations - I want to start a conversation that clarifies (with details) some of my findings that were not specifically explained after 3-4 hours of research on here. I want a consensus as to why I would ever recommend, or not recommend, a 34" or 35" scale to someone else - dependent on THEIR tastes, not mine.
Secondly, I would prefer not discussing 5-strings here, except maybe for comparisons that might help someone explain their thoughts. I gave 5-strings a consideration and decided to stay with a 4-string. Besides, buying a fiver just to play BEAD seems counter-intuitive.

34" = long scale
35" = extra long scale

Why? I made the mistake of seeing here that 35" scale is pretty much the end-all for BEAD tuning. Well, I found out, that for me, it is absolutely not the case. As a matter of fact, I personally am not ecstatic about the sound coming from a 35" even with EADG tuning. Also, I am sure there will be others looking for the same answers as I was.

I used to play guitar, but I was lazy and never got good at playing. I built a guitar in 1997 around a Carvin neck-thru and joked that I was better at building than playing. Last year, I rebuilt that old guitar and it reignited my desire to play. It also somehow sparked a new, greater interest in bass: I bought a Washburn Taurus T24 in Sept 2018. At the time, I didn't know anything about neck scale and just got lucky that I found a good deal on a local 34" bass that I thought looked really nice. I bought an ESP LTD F-4E NS (35") last week and am greatly disappointed that it doesn't sound as "round and mellow" as my 34". So, I did some investigating and uncovered some hints/answers that people on TalkBass haven't discussed in as much detail...

34" vs 35" Timbre: there is a difference, especially on the three higher strings. Unfortunately, most threads discuss the low string only, which isn't my issue. Compared to my 34", the low string sounds somewhat similar on my 35". However, the top three on the 35" sound noticeably twangy compared to my 34". At first I blamed the F-4E's ebony top - the most obvious material difference between my two basses. Nah, couldn't be. I also doubted neck/body thickness could produce anything more than a subtle difference. I feel it is extremely important to note that I ruled out electronics because after I noticed a difference, I began doing all my comparisons un-amplified. I believe both basses are strung with a set of D'Addario EXL160 XL Nickel Round Wounds (I verified the gauges match with an electronic micrometer).
Then I found posts in multiple threads by Sadowsky and FuzzBass that were inline with what I was hearing: 35" scales produce an obviously brighter, more "modern" timbre, which is most apparent on the three higher strings. Some have described 34" scales as darker - to me, 34" has a traditional sound with a more consistent, mellow timbre across all four strings. To me, a 35" almost sounds like a guitar with very fat strings on it, while a 34" sounds like what the majority of the world's population probably identify as "the" typical bass sound. Further reading found that scales under 34" produce even fatter bottoms as they become shorter.
I did run across a thread where socialleper stated that the brightness of a 35" might benefit BEAD tuning since a 34" could potentially sound muddy from the already darker/deeper timbre. Though I wonder if this muddiness may be due to the pickups or amp being unable to reproduce the lower frequencies adequately? 35" scale might also be a preference for a player wanting to use the brighter timbre to cut through a mix.

What I'm getting at: if you love the mellow sound of a 34" bass across all four strings and have been led to believe a 35" is the best solution to your new BEAD desires, then buying a 35" (because you think you need that extra tension to tune down) might be a disappointment.

34" vs 35" for BEAD: the problem with most of these discussions is that posts focus on one aspect and then give very vague insight as to why this is. Some say 35" is the way to go simply because: higher tension ...period. This reduces string flop on the low B since it has to be a higher tension than a 34" to get the same open note. But why not solve the tension problem by doing the math and buying BEAD strings for your 34" that closely match the tension of your old EADG strings?
Some will chime in with, "I started using Brand X strings and it fixed my tension issue" - but few add details on the gauge of their strings (before/after), so how is anyone supposed to garner anything of value from a statement like that? Maybe this person doesn't realize the gauge, wind, core, and/or weight of the string is correcting the problem, not just a brand that somehow doesn't magically flop at any given gauge?
Some say that a low B on a 34" is always going to be floppy and then others will add that this floppiness can be correcting if the bass is "set up properly" while not specifically referring to which adjustment. How can filing the nut, changing action, and/or lengthening intonation produce a much tighter string that won't flop all over the place? So, maybe they are referring to the a truss rod adjustment? Well, a string's frequency is dictated by it's weight and it's tension over a given distance. Therefor, a properly tuned string will not change tension whether the neck is bowed one way or the other - if it is a floppy B, it will be a floppy B whether it buzzes against frets or not.

What I'm getting at: I question 35" to be the end-all, be-all answer for good BEAD tension. I guess if you don't bother to change the string gauge (much), then a 35" is naturally going to maintain a higher tension at BEAD and produce less flop. However, this is a lazy solution to what I believe to be an easy-to-solve problem. A 34" tuned down to BEAD should not be "floppy" IF you buy strings that require a similar tension in that same position when tuned down.

I have seen recommendations to start with at least a .125 for most low B applications on a 34" to prevent flop. Keep in mind that specific string design can alter tension, so this is ballpark.

EXAMPLE
By my calculations/comparisons: when replacing my EXL160 set (.105 E), the best pre-packaged D-Addarrio option would be to buy the EXL160-5 set (.135 B) and ditch the G string. This set would produce a lower neck tension, so may require a truss rod adjustment. However, it will be close enough to the original EADG tension, that a floppy B string would be a non-issue and one could retain the 34" timbre. To get something most-similar to the tensions of the EADG-tuned EXL160 set on a 34" scale, without increasing overall tension, purchasing these individual D-Addario strings tuned to BEAD seems optimal to me: XLB135, XLB100, XLB90, XLB70. These individual strings would total $5-10 more than the EXL160-5 set.

D'Addario String Tension 101
Tension Calculator

Other things to consider for BEAD tuning: thicker strings may require nut and saddle filing (saddles could benefit from taper wound sets); the bridge saddles need to have enough room for longer intonation adjustment (may need to cut the saddle's spring and screw length or replace the bridge); the larger B string needs to fit through the bridge (may need to drill out the hole or purchase taper wound sets)


Anyways, I am keeping the 35" F-4E as it is a beautiful instrument, it plays fine, and I got a good deal on it (plus, the last four digits of the serial number are "0666"). Does it play better than my T24? I don't think so ...or maybe I just can't play the longer scale as smoothly, despite the F-4E's thinner neck? Does it sound better than my T24? Unequivocally: No. I do like that the 35" has a different sound, but my personal taste does not prefer the brighter timbre (amplified or un-amplified) of the required increased string tension on a 35" scale. So, I am back in the market for a second 34" bass to experiment with BEAD tuning and plan to methodically (mathodically?) choose string gauges to eliminate the infamous floppiness.


I encourage any and all comments on this subject as this is what I have hypothesized. I am looking for the correct answers, not trying to push my wrong answers onto anyone.

 

[mikezimmerman]

4-string 34" vs 35" scale: how these scales dictate timbre and are 35" scales really what everyone should use for BEAD tuning?

The moment you say that everyone should do any one particular thing, you have it wrong, and I've never seen it said that 35" scale is an absolute requirement for BEAD tuning, or for 5-sting. Some people will prefer it, and others won't.

 

[JW56789]

I don't know all the technical aspects of 34 vs 35, I simply prefer 34's as their are more string and instrument choices, and whatever difference there may be, I've never heard a 'night and day' difference, so it's 34 for me. I'm sure from a technical standpoint, any number of solid arguments could be made for varying scale lengths, but at this point in time, the standard seems to have settled to Leo's original 34 inches. While their are guys that can, I'm not smart enough to re-invent the wheel.

 

[CrankyGypsy]

The moment you say that everyone should do any one particular thing, you have it wrong, and I've never seen it said that 35" scale is an absolute requirement for BEAD tuning, or for 5-sting.

Are you implying that I am saying that a 34" cannot be tuned down?! Well, I went into depth on why I think it can be done properly ...and with minimal guess-work, on top of that.

But this is exactly why I wanted to start a discussion - I am certainly not making a statement or coming up with anything original. When I did my research for a BEAD bass, I was sold on the idea that a 35" was THE way to go due to the ratio of recommendations, unaware of the difference in timbre. Mind you, there were a lot of one-sentence recommendations with no reason behind them. I am throwing my thoughts out to the forum so that I can piece things together to understand how/why a 34" differs from a 35", because a lot of the info I gathered was scattered across this forum.

I simply prefer 34's as their are more string and instrument choices, and whatever difference there may be, I've never heard a 'night and day' difference, so it's 34 for me.

I appreciate the input, because I'm trying to sort this phenomenon out. I will work on uploading some clips of playing a 34" and a 35".

 

[BruceWane]

The problem with going to thicker strings to battle the flop is that thicker strings start to act less like a string and more like a solid rod, which behaves like a bell. That doesn't work real well when you're trying to get solid low notes.

For solid thick bass tone, you're best off going with longer scale and thinner strings rather than shorter scale and thicker strings. If you're going to do BEAD(G) tuning, and you want even feel and tone, it's probably better to go with 35" and get thinner gauges for the higher strings, rather than going shorter scale and thicker gauges for the low strings. Easier too, since it's not really a problem to find lighter gauges that sound good to use for ADG.

 

[Mushroo]

The big problem with your logic is that you are comparing two completely different instruments, and then assuming the difference is caused primarily by the scale length.

To make any kind of meaningful comparison, you'd need two basses that are otherwise identical, except for the scale length.

34" vs. 35" in and of itself, shouldn't make much difference at all. We are talking about less than 1 fret's difference. Switching between 34" and 35" is less significant than, for example, F# major scale at the 2nd fret vs. G major scale at the 3rd fret. Or less significant than, for example, tuning down a half step to play a song in Eb tuning.

A really fun low-cost method to experiment with different scale lengths: Buy a capo (less than $10) and experiment with the capo at the 1st and 2nd frets. Retune the strings so that the capo'd frets are E, A, D, and G (or B, E, A, D if you prefer). Each fret is about 2". So for example if you take a 34" bass, tune it ADGC, and put a capo at the 2nd fret, that approximates a 30" bass tuned BEAD.

 

[mikezimmerman]

Are you implying that I am saying that a 34" cannot be tuned down?!

I merely quoted your own very first line, which said "...are 35" scales really what everyone should use for BEAD tuning?"

So, I reiterate my statement--the moment you declare that everyone should use one particular thing, the statement is almost certainly wrong, and that isn't really changed by mathematical analysis of string tension (or stiffness, which is really a different thing). There is no one answer that fits everybody, and every approach is a compromise in one way or another.

People prefer many different feels, and many different tonalities. People have differing hand sizes and flexibility and playing styles. For that matter, many people aren't concerned about or bothered by a "floppy string", because they play cleanly and have good, controlled technique.

As BruceWane pointed out, thicker strings/more stiffness/more tension isn't necessarily the answer, because that changes the vibration characteristics of the string. If you're talking purely about what produces the purest fundamental and overtone frequencies, a light string with a flexible core is probably better than a heavier, stiffer string.

Since I play a 34" scale BEAD bass, and have owned many 34" (and 35") scale 5- and 6-string basses, I obviously have no problem with 34" for a low B.

 

[BruceWane]

A really fun low-cost method to experiment with different scale lengths: Buy a capo (less than $10) and experiment with the capo at the 1st and 2nd frets. Retune the strings so that the capo'd frets are E, A, D, and G (or B, E, A, D if you prefer). Each fret is about 2". So for example if you take a 34" bass, tune it ADGC, and put a capo at the 2nd fret, that approximates a 30" bass tuned BEAD.

Likewise, tune a 34" bass up a half step (C-F-A#-D#-G#) and you get a good idea of what tension/feel is like on a 36" scale bass tuned standard.

 

[lz4005]

I encourage any and all comments on this subject as this is what I have hypothesized. I am looking for the correct answers, not trying to push my wrong answers onto anyone.

The problem with higher pitched strings not sounding good on extended scale instruments is one reason fanned fret instruments were invented. That way you can have each string at a length that is closer to optimal for the note it is tuned to.

Similarly, the reason people don't just use thicker and thicker strings to get an acceptable tension is that as strings get thicker they get less flexible, which gives them an overtone series more like a solid rod than a string. That's why basses aren't violin scale instruments with steel .500 gauge low B strings. It would theoretically work, but it wouldn't sound the way we want it to sound.

Longer scale lengths (as in, the 37" B on a Dingwall fanned fret bass) let you get good tension on a B string that is thin enough to still be more flexible. While a shorter scale length (as in, the 34" G string on that same Dingwall) gives you the traditional sound you lose when you extend the higher pitched strings to a longer scale.

 

[CrankyGypsy]

Thanks mikezimmerman, I appreciate you following up with the details. I don't think everyone should be using a 34" or a 35", so I couldn't agree more with your point. I am just bringing up the differences in what I perceive as timbre that I have noted in my two basses that I am confused by. I certainly did not expect them to sound similar, but I am surprised by just how differently they sound. And when I dug a little deeper, I found a few others that are hearing what I am hearing.

I originally shot a video of playing a long lick on each bass un-amplified, but the difference was totally inaudible. However, the difference is obvious strumming them side by side. Both basses have EXL160 sets tuned to EADG, ebony over maple neck thru mahogany. The F-4E (left) has the ebony top and the T24 (right) has a thicker neck, so I am sure that is playing a role. However, you can hear that the two A strings are very different, while the E strings are much more subtle in difference (the T24's E being slightly fuller, in my opinion):



here are the string tension differences between the 34" (left) and the 35" (right):

the ADG tension differences are all greater than the E. I am not convinced this has any relevance to my perceived timbre differences, but I happened upon a very interesting page: Invalid Link Removed

"In the early 1970s, I performed some tests to measure string tensions at the bridge of fixed-bridge instruments, and the associated lateral down-pressure loads on those instruments with movable bridges and tailpieces. What I found was that the relative tension of each string in a set of strings was critically important to the timbre; amplitude, sustain, clarity, and most importantly, the string-to-string balance.
... As a result, total string tension coupled with the longitudinal energy sent to the bridge is critical to the amplitude, balance, and timbre of acoustic guitars."

 

[CrankyGypsy]

Explaining the thicker gauges as a steel rod definitely helps me to understand the problem of that "solution."

 

[mikezimmerman]

And I apologize if my initial response came off as argumentative! But I thoroughly believe that every design choice is a compromise in some way, chosen to try and optimize some things at the expense of others, and there's no single choice that's right for everybody.

I've owned a *lot* of basses, and the 34" vs. 35" scale does make a difference in feel and tone, but it's just one of many factors (neck materials and construction, neck-to-body joint, body wood and density, string choice, etc.). I've owned many lovely 35" scale basses (including my current Nordstrand SC5), but after years of going back and forth, I've come to realize that I personally prefer 34".

Part of that is feel. I can play 35" scale, but 34" is just more comfortable and familiar to me. And yes, I agree, there does seem to be a subtle difference in tone. To quote Roger Sadowsky from this thread:
Why no 35'' scale 5 string Sadowskys?

"I have two main issues with 35" scale. First, it is not a magic fix to create a tight B string. I have seen many 35" basses with B strings floppier than ours at 34".

The other issue is tone. When I did prototype 35's many years ago, I felt the bass became more "generic" sounding and lost a lot of the tonal character I am used to hear in my basses. Finally, I especially disliked the sound of the G string in the upper register. At 35", it starts to get nasal sounding to me."

I've owned several Lakland 5's, essentially 35" scale Jazz designs, and they sound great and have excellent B's, but they don't sound the same as 34" Jazz designs like Sadowsky and Fender.

On the other hand, there are basses with their own iconic tones--Modulus and MTD come to mind--that have 35" scales, and I think that contributes to their distinctive sounds, as well.

Thanks mikezimmerman, I appreciate you following up with the details. I don't think everyone should be using a 34" or a 35", so I couldn't agree more with your point. I am just bringing up the differences in what I perceive as timbre that I have noted in my two basses that I am confused by. I certainly did not expect them to sound similar, but I am surprised by just how differently they sound. And when I dug a little deeper, I found a few others that are hearing what I am hearing.

I originally shot a video of playing a long lick on each bass un-amplified, but the difference was totally inaudible. However, the difference is obvious strumming them side by side. Both basses have EXL160 sets tuned to EADG, ebony over maple neck thru mahogany. The F-4E (left) has the ebony top and the T24 (right) has a thicker neck, so I am sure that is playing a role. However, you can hear that the two A strings are very different, while the E strings are much more subtle in difference (the T24's E being slightly fuller, in my opinion):



here are the string tension differences between the 34" (left) and the 35" (right):

View attachment 3368078

the ADG tension differences are all greater than the E. I am not convinced this has any relevance to my perceived timbre differences, but I happened upon a very interesting page: Why no 35'' scale 5 string Sadowskys?

"In the early 1970s, I performed some tests to measure string tensions at the bridge of fixed-bridge instruments, and the associated lateral down-pressure loads on those instruments with movable bridges and tailpieces. What I found was that the relative tension of each string in a set of strings was critically important to the timbre; amplitude, sustain, clarity, and most importantly, the string-to-string balance.
... As a result, total string tension coupled with the longitudinal energy sent to the bridge is critical to the amplitude, balance, and timbre of acoustic guitars."

 

[GIBrat51]

Well, all that fuss and research is... OK, I guess; and if it makes you happy? I'm certainly glad for you. However... I had this Carvin LB-20 (very nice bass, by the way) that was sort of excess to my herd's requirements. So, just for grins, I changed the nut, and strung it BEAD with 65-130 Roto 77s. Plays nice; sounds good. I'm happy; no muss, no fuss; and, no obsessive research was needed. I find that, sometimes, just doing what feels right - is right...

 

[Robscott]

These threads all go the same way....lots of opinions and theory to back it up, then someone says "go play some and use your ears" and everyone piles in with likes

 

[gepettus]

Please get a Dingwall

 

[WardEarth]

I believe bead tuning works fine with a standard scale bass, you just gotta find the right strings.

 

[el_Bajo_Verde]

If you go the 34" route just get heavier strings. Honestly, B-strings should start out a lot thicker than .125, especially at 34".

I go 35" or fan fret 37"+ lowest string

If a B-string is floppy, get a thicker B-string. Boom, magic.

 

[Jrussblues]

I have a 33” 6, a 34” 5 and a 35” 5
They all sound good but I’ve filtered through a bunch of stuff I didn’t like to find instruments that I did like.
One of them was completely by happenstance.
Sometimes a scientific approach can be thrown out the window.

 

[ixlramp]

I bought a Washburn Taurus T24 in Sept 2018. At the time, I didn't know anything about neck scale and just got lucky that I found a good deal on a local 34" bass that I thought looked really nice. I bought an ESP LTD F-4E NS (35") last week and am greatly disappointed that it doesn't sound as "round and mellow" as my 34"

The problem is, these are 2 different basses. The only way to know that the 35" scale is the cause of what you dislike is to have 2 basses identical in every way apart from scale.

but my personal taste does not prefer the brighter timbre (amplified or un-amplified) of the required increased string tension on a 35" scale

By choosing lower gauges you can make a 35" scale bass have the tensions of a 34" scale bass, which will probably also reduce the brightness, then you gain clarity through having more flexible strings. So there may be a solution to the tone you dislike. Less tension tends to create a more mellow tone.
Perhaps try this?

Unfortunately bass manufacturers put the same stock string sets on 35" scale basses and market the advantages of the higher tension, but this is only valid for the typically low tension B, the EADG are now over-tensioned. They should instead string them with smaller gauges and market the advantage of smaller more flexible strings while maintaining the same tension. Or, use the same B gauge and only reduce the gauges of the EADG. I suspect there are commercial reasons why they don't and they put the same gauges on all scale lengths.

B's are at an extreme gauge-to-length ratio where stiffness is causing very significant problems. By using a 34" scale and increasing gauge tension as you suggest, a larger gauge is needed, making the stiffness problems worse.
Generally, for BEAD, the optimum solution (some will prefer otherwise which is fine) is a 35" scale, not increasing the B gauge, and smaller gauges for EAD to avoid overtensioning.

 

[ixlramp]

To quote Roger Sadowsky [...]
"I have two main issues with 35" scale. First, it is not a magic fix to create a tight B string. I have seen many 35" basses with B strings floppier than ours at 34".

This is a good example of how luthiers can be wrong and you can't assume they're right just because they're a luthier, even a highly respected luthier as Sadowsky seems to be.

A longer scale does raise tension, that's just a law of nature. Just because other factors can sometimes outweigh the benefits of a longer sale doesn't mean that a longer scale doesn't reduce floppiness, it inevitably does, floppiness is primarily determined by tension. Yes, it's not a magic fix because other factors can be so bad they outweigh, but a luthier has control over this, they would make sure that the quality of a 35" bass is as high as their 34" basses.

Mr. Sadowsky just likes what he likes and prefers a more traditional tone, which is fine.