Scale: timbre and BEAD (an end-all thread?)

[nnnnnn]

an end-all thread?

Ha ha ha ha.

 

[Treebeard]

I prefer 34" in every tuning and string composition. We are all going to die one day.

 

[Keith Guitars]

This is a good example of how luthiers can be wrong and you can't assume they're right just because they're a luthier, even a highly respected luthier as Sadowsky seems to be.

A longer scale does raise tension, that's just a law of nature. Just because other factors can sometimes outweigh the benefits of a longer sale doesn't mean that a longer scale doesn't reduce floppiness, it inevitably does, floppiness is primarily determined by tension. Yes, it's not a magic fix because other factors can be so bad they outweigh, but a luthier has control over this, they would make sure that the quality of a 35" bass is as high as their 34" basses.

Mr. Sadowsky just likes what he likes and prefers a more traditional tone, which is fine.

To be fair, it is an oversimplification to say that Roger is wrong here. He certainly understands the 101 level physics underlying the scale length and tension equation.
There are a number of factors unrelated to scale length that can result in a floppy-sounding or floppy-feeling string.
Neck rigidity is a big one - Roger (like myself) is very fussy about choosing neck wood with minimal runout and good mechanical characteristics,
and this alone can noticeably improve the tone and *apparent* tension (note emphasis on "apparent) of a string.
Afterlength (the trade term for the distance of inactive string beyond the nut and saddle points), break angle over those points, mass/inertia of the headpiece,
and string composition all factor in here as well.

Beyond that, please bear in mind that the string tension calculators only give you data for a string at rest, not a vibrating string.
Once the system starts vibrating, the tension fluctuates, and the amount of fluctuation is very much affected by the parts to which the string is attached.

I can say with certaintly (having done so, and built examples of all types) that a 34" scale bass with a rigid neck and well-chosen parameters
will definitely have a more musical AND tighter-feeling low B (again, note the emphasis) than a 35" with a lousy, flexible neck.

So, although the "law of nature" described above is basically right, we are still very far from Roger being wrong.
And, to be fair, "even a highly respected luthier as Sadowsky seems to be" is borderline impolite.
There is no "seems to be" - Roger is very well-established as one of the best in the field, a conclusion supported by both his colleagues and his clients.
He's also a real gentleman, and I would hope his experience and willingness to share his knowledge would be treated with respect.

Cheers,
Martin

 

[mikewalker]

Back in about 1988 I built a 30.0 inch scale headless bass that spent most of its time with me in BEAD. Sounded great, played great... was strung with heavy gauge RS66, IIRC

 

[cnltb]

Different scale lengths sound different. Use which you think sounds best.
For Low B I currently use 36". None of the strings on my bass sound twangy at all and even the G , up on the 29th fret has body and tone.
The bass was designed in that way and is set up to work well.

 

[The_Owl]

You can always get a long scale Dingwall and get the best of both worlds (34-37" on a five, 34-36.25" on a four).

 

[amphlett7]

I believe both basses are strung with a set of D'Addario EXL160 XL Nickel Round Wounds (I verified the gauges match with an electronic micrometer).

This is your problem.

The strings, although the same, act differently due to the tension being different on the longer scale length.

A great comparison would be to go to Kalium strings and spec out a balanced tension set of strings for each bass.

Matching the tension, and not the string gauge, would result in a better test.

For Example

Using the Kalium string tension page it shows these specs for a 0.045 gauge G string

at 34 inch scale the string has a tension of 46.54 (pounds, I believe)
the same string at 35 inches has a tension of 49.32 pounds.

That extra tension will surely have an affect on the tone and likely contributes to the brighter sound you're hearing.

In contrast, a 0.043 gauge string has a tension of 44.62 and would likely sound more similar to the thicker gauge at 34 inches.

This is all in theory but something to test for sure!

 

[micguy]

34 inches is a band aid solution (yeah,it works somewhat); the real solution is properly designed strings. Looking at tension charts for 5 string sets, it’s clear most string manufacturers don’t understand the issue.

 

[Jehos]

Your A/B comparison is two totally different basses. Scale length is the least impactful thing to your tone.

You can't really talk about the impact of scale length on tone until you've got the exact same bass but two different scale lengths.

 

[khutch]

My current favorite bass is a 30 inch five string. I tune in fifths starting on C rather than in fourths starting on B but that makes little difference. I like the way it plays, I like the way it sounds. I wish everyone the same satisfaction with their instrument no matter how far it differs from mine. My happiness does not depend on you doing what I do!! Play what you love and I will be happy for you.

 

[mikezimmerman]

This is a good example of how luthiers can be wrong and you can't assume they're right just because they're a luthier, even a highly respected luthier as Sadowsky seems to be.

A longer scale does raise tension, that's just a law of nature. Just because other factors can sometimes outweigh the benefits of a longer sale doesn't mean that a longer scale doesn't reduce floppiness, it inevitably does, floppiness is primarily determined by tension. Yes, it's not a magic fix because other factors can be so bad they outweigh, but a luthier has control over this, they would make sure that the quality of a 35" bass is as high as their 34" basses.

Mr. Sadowsky just likes what he likes and prefers a more traditional tone, which is fine.

Well, "floppiness" is a feel thing rather than a technical term, and besides the actual string tension, it is also related to things like string construction (specifically, how stiff the core is), and also things like breakover angles at the nut and bridge, and neck mass and stiffness, since movement at ends of the string will also change the feel.

Looks like @Keith Guitars explained it much better than I did!

 

[FugaziBomb]

Compared to my 34", the low string sounds somewhat similar on my 35". However, the top three on the 35" sound noticeably twangy compared to my 34".

There are so many variables when comparing two separate instruments that I would say its almost impossible to attribute that difference to scale length alone. Heck, last time I was at GC I played two different American Jazzes from the same product line and their timbre was audibly different.

I have about 25 guitars and bases that I relentlessly tinker with and modify and I've found that it's near impossible to attribute a specific tonal characteristic to any one part. The tone - or timber - of any instrument is the sum of all parts and swapping a single part can have a different impact on any given bass.

It's all essentially chaos in action - too many variables.

 

[MDBass]

4-string 34" vs 35" scale: how these scales dictate timbre and are 35" scales really what everyone should use for BEAD tuning?

First, I do not want to simply rehash old conversations - I want to start a conversation that clarifies (with details) some of my findings that were not specifically explained after 3-4 hours of research on here. I want a consensus as to why I would ever recommend, or not recommend, a 34" or 35" scale to someone else - dependent on THEIR tastes, not mine.
Secondly, I would prefer not discussing 5-strings here, except maybe for comparisons that might help someone explain their thoughts. I gave 5-strings a consideration and decided to stay with a 4-string. Besides, buying a fiver just to play BEAD seems counter-intuitive.

34" = long scale
35" = extra long scale

Why? I made the mistake of seeing here that 35" scale is pretty much the end-all for BEAD tuning. Well, I found out, that for me, it is absolutely not the case. As a matter of fact, I personally am not ecstatic about the sound coming from a 35" even with EADG tuning. Also, I am sure there will be others looking for the same answers as I was.

I used to play guitar, but I was lazy and never got good at playing. I built a guitar in 1997 around a Carvin neck-thru and joked that I was better at building than playing. Last year, I rebuilt that old guitar and it reignited my desire to play. It also somehow sparked a new, greater interest in bass: I bought a Washburn Taurus T24 in Sept 2018. At the time, I didn't know anything about neck scale and just got lucky that I found a good deal on a local 34" bass that I thought looked really nice. I bought an ESP LTD F-4E NS (35") last week and am greatly disappointed that it doesn't sound as "round and mellow" as my 34". So, I did some investigating and uncovered some hints/answers that people on TalkBass haven't discussed in as much detail...

34" vs 35" Timbre: there is a difference, especially on the three higher strings. Unfortunately, most threads discuss the low string only, which isn't my issue. Compared to my 34", the low string sounds somewhat similar on my 35". However, the top three on the 35" sound noticeably twangy compared to my 34". At first I blamed the F-4E's ebony top - the most obvious material difference between my two basses. Nah, couldn't be. I also doubted neck/body thickness could produce anything more than a subtle difference. I feel it is extremely important to note that I ruled out electronics because after I noticed a difference, I began doing all my comparisons un-amplified. I believe both basses are strung with a set of D'Addario EXL160 XL Nickel Round Wounds (I verified the gauges match with an electronic micrometer).
Then I found posts in multiple threads by Sadowsky and FuzzBass that were inline with what I was hearing: 35" scales produce an obviously brighter, more "modern" timbre, which is most apparent on the three higher strings. Some have described 34" scales as darker - to me, 34" has a traditional sound with a more consistent, mellow timbre across all four strings. To me, a 35" almost sounds like a guitar with very fat strings on it, while a 34" sounds like what the majority of the world's population probably identify as "the" typical bass sound. Further reading found that scales under 34" produce even fatter bottoms as they become shorter.
I did run across a thread where socialleper stated that the brightness of a 35" might benefit BEAD tuning since a 34" could potentially sound muddy from the already darker/deeper timbre. Though I wonder if this muddiness may be due to the pickups or amp being unable to reproduce the lower frequencies adequately? 35" scale might also be a preference for a player wanting to use the brighter timbre to cut through a mix.

What I'm getting at: if you love the mellow sound of a 34" bass across all four strings and have been led to believe a 35" is the best solution to your new BEAD desires, then buying a 35" (because you think you need that extra tension to tune down) might be a disappointment.

34" vs 35" for BEAD: the problem with most of these discussions is that posts focus on one aspect and then give very vague insight as to why this is. Some say 35" is the way to go simply because: higher tension ...period. This reduces string flop on the low B since it has to be a higher tension than a 34" to get the same open note. But why not solve the tension problem by doing the math and buying BEAD strings for your 34" that closely match the tension of your old EADG strings?
Some will chime in with, "I started using Brand X strings and it fixed my tension issue" - but few add details on the gauge of their strings (before/after), so how is anyone supposed to garner anything of value from a statement like that? Maybe this person doesn't realize the gauge, wind, core, and/or weight of the string is correcting the problem, not just a brand that somehow doesn't magically flop at any given gauge?
Some say that a low B on a 34" is always going to be floppy and then others will add that this floppiness can be correcting if the bass is "set up properly" while not specifically referring to which adjustment. How can filing the nut, changing action, and/or lengthening intonation produce a much tighter string that won't flop all over the place? So, maybe they are referring to the a truss rod adjustment? Well, a string's frequency is dictated by it's weight and it's tension over a given distance. Therefor, a properly tuned string will not change tension whether the neck is bowed one way or the other - if it is a floppy B, it will be a floppy B whether it buzzes against frets or not.

What I'm getting at: I question 35" to be the end-all, be-all answer for good BEAD tension. I guess if you don't bother to change the string gauge (much), then a 35" is naturally going to maintain a higher tension at BEAD and produce less flop. However, this is a lazy solution to what I believe to be an easy-to-solve problem. A 34" tuned down to BEAD should not be "floppy" IF you buy strings that require a similar tension in that same position when tuned down.

I have seen recommendations to start with at least a .125 for most low B applications on a 34" to prevent flop. Keep in mind that specific string design can alter tension, so this is ballpark.

EXAMPLE
By my calculations/comparisons: when replacing my EXL160 set (.105 E), the best pre-packaged D-Addarrio option would be to buy the EXL160-5 set (.135 B) and ditch the G string. This set would produce a lower neck tension, so may require a truss rod adjustment. However, it will be close enough to the original EADG tension, that a floppy B string would be a non-issue and one could retain the 34" timbre. To get something most-similar to the tensions of the EADG-tuned EXL160 set on a 34" scale, without increasing overall tension, purchasing these individual D-Addario strings tuned to BEAD seems optimal to me: XLB135, XLB100, XLB90, XLB70. These individual strings would total $5-10 more than the EXL160-5 set.

D'Addario String Tension 101
Tension Calculator

Other things to consider for BEAD tuning: thicker strings may require nut and saddle filing (saddles could benefit from taper wound sets); the bridge saddles need to have enough room for longer intonation adjustment (may need to cut the saddle's spring and screw length or replace the bridge); the larger B string needs to fit through the bridge (may need to drill out the hole or purchase taper wound sets)


Anyways, I am keeping the 35" F-4E as it is a beautiful instrument, it plays fine, and I got a good deal on it (plus, the last four digits of the serial number are "0666"). Does it play better than my T24? I don't think so ...or maybe I just can't play the longer scale as smoothly, despite the F-4E's thinner neck? Does it sound better than my T24? Unequivocally: No. I do like that the 35" has a different sound, but my personal taste does not prefer the brighter timbre (amplified or un-amplified) of the required increased string tension on a 35" scale. So, I am back in the market for a second 34" bass to experiment with BEAD tuning and plan to methodically (mathodically?) choose string gauges to eliminate the infamous floppiness.


I encourage any and all comments on this subject as this is what I have hypothesized. I am looking for the correct answers, not trying to push my wrong answers onto anyone.

That’s why 37”-34” scale basses are the actual “end all, be all” basses for BEAD tuning

 

[CrankyGypsy]

I made some broad generalizations and realize there's far more to learn or understand. So, I am greatly appreciative of the amount of information and detail you all are cramming into this thread. Much easier to make sense of it all in one spot than pulling bits from several places (that might not even be entirely relative) and trying to put it together like a puzzle.

To clarify, I never expected both basses to sound exactly the same - I was just shocked at how dramatically different they sound. To me, eyes closed and un-amplified, the ADG-strings on the F-4E sound like a jumbo acoustic guitar ...way more presence. It's certainly not the worst problem to have, but very far from what I had expected for a solid body bass. I've decided to go ahead and BEAD the F-4E as originally planned, so I need to start experimenting: I measured the nut slots (!!!) last night and looks like it might take a set of EXL160BT strings (.120, .90, .67, .50) without filing - this should at least give me a quick, first reference in regards to feel after a truss adjustment. We'll see how that goes.

 

[ixlramp]

To be fair, it is an oversimplification to say that Roger is wrong here.

'Wrong' is perhaps a bad word to use.
Quoting Mr. Sadowsky: "I have two main issues with 35" scale. First, it is not a magic fix to create a tight B string. I have seen many 35" basses with B strings floppier than ours at 34"".
What i'm expressing is: This is not an "issue with 35" scale", it's an observation and is not a disadvantage of a 35" scale or any kind of argument against it.
A low quality 35" bass can have more flop and lower perceived tightness than a high quality 34" bass (however the low quality 35" bass will have higher actual scientific tension), but this is irrelevant because, all else being equal, a longer scale will create higher actual tension, higher perceived tightness, and less flop.
But this is probably just a case of use of language, maybe it's meant as: "two main points".

I agree with all your technical points, they don't contradict what i wrote.

And, to be fair, "even a highly respected luthier as Sadowsky seems to be" is borderline impolite.

I meant 'seems' as in: 'this is the impression i get', not as in: 'i doubt it'. Writing that he seems respected is meant as a compliment.

 

[ixlramp]

We are all going to die one day.

We're all going to die yes, is this suggesting we don't make an effort to try to improve life and nothing matters? Seems potentially a very depressing attitude.

Well, "floppiness" is a feel thing rather than a technical term, and besides the actual string tension, it is also related to things like [...]

Yes, but i meant 'with all else being equal', in which case floppiness will certainly be lower when tension is higher. Tension is the primary determiner of floppiness.

 

[Keith Guitars]

We're all going to die yes, is this suggesting we don't make an effort to try to improve life and nothing matters? Seems potentially a very depressing attitude.

Yes, but i meant 'with all else being equal', in which case floppiness will certainly be lower when tension is higher. Tension is the primary determiner of floppiness.

A worthwhile post, and I in turn agree with you point, which is certainly true.
I think threads like this benefit very much from this type of clarity, so points like this don't get misunderstood by others later on (I've seen it happen!)

Cheers!

 

[chadds]

I’ve had two makers’ basses that have been 35”. The top three strings sound sweet. I have a P that’s of course 34” and all of it sound sweet.

I’m thinking setup can make a significant difference in your observations. The proper neck relief, action, and your eye color can make any bass four or five feel a perfect blend of rich tone and rigidity and soft playability.

 

[CrankyGypsy]

strung an EXL160BT set onto the F-4E yesterday and tuned it down to BEAD. No filing of the nut required and decided to leave the saddle recesses alone. I was getting a truckload of expected buzz, but tension was pretty good without any adjustments. the B did not seem "floppy" at all.

just got done adjusting the truss rod (backed it off maybe 3/8 of a turn to reduce backbow), action, and intonation. I had to put a shorter spring on the B saddle to get it back far enough. not sure the ubiquitous/vague "you just need a proper setup" did anything for the tension and it certainly did not affect the timbre of the three high strings (expected), but it plays really well with a good feel in my novice hands.

(now, I'd like to find a deal on a local 34" that has a timbre similar to my Taurus to detune/mess with)