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Scales, more than box shapes

#61
HolmeBass said:
Well thanks. I think beyond that, for any arbitrary chord X there is a scale Y that *defines* the notes in the chord. For example, a chord like Cadd6, or C9, the "6" and the "9" specifically refer to the C major scale: one is the 6th degree, while the 9 is the 2nd degree but an octave higher. So chords are defined by the scales they are based on. It's right in the very names of the chords themselves.
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You make some good points, but I'm still not sure how to apply the concept to actual music. Let's say for example you are in the key of C Major, and the composer indicates a Bb Major chord for one measure. Are you saying that the Bb Major chord "defines" the song as having left the key of C? And if it has temporarily left the key of C for one measure, which key has it modulated to? The keys of Bb, Eb, and F all contain Bb Major chords.

Personally I find it easier to think that the song is still in C Major, and play the chord tones Bb, D, F.
 
#62
HolmeBass said:
To me it's clear as day that the very naming of chords is built upon the related major scale.
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The 12 intervals are named in relation to the major scale, and we use them to describe scales and chords.

declaring which 'defines' which may be a matter of viewpoint.

To me it seems that intervals 'define' the terminology of both scales and chords, if anything

(removes pedantic hat)
 
#64
SteveCS said:
But could equally be in direct reference to any other scale whose 4th is perfect...
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No, not when naming a chord it can't. Chords are named referenced to the major scale. Can you give me an instance when that is not the case? For example, Cm6 is not named in reference to the natural minor scale. The "6" refers to a major 6th, not a minor one.
 
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#65
Mushroo said:
You make some good points, but I'm still not sure how to apply the concept to actual music. Let's say for example you are in the key of C Major, and the composer indicates a Bb Major chord for one measure. Are you saying that the Bb Major chord "defines" the song as having left the key of C? And if it has temporarily left the key of C for one measure, which key has it modulated to? The keys of Bb, Eb, and F all contain Bb Major chords.

Personally I find it easier to think that the song is still in C Major, and play the chord tones Bb, D, F.
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I agree with this, I don't think it enters into thought while actually playing music, and while playing of course the chart is king.

But when learning chords and how they're built, isn't it fundamental to build them based off of the major scale? That was my only point. Lots of posters seem to really denigrate scales, but they are the foundation of harmony in no small part because they define the names of the intervals and define the syntax for spelling chords.
 
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#66
HolmeBass said:
I agree with this, I don't think it enters into thought while actually playing music, and while playing of course the chart is king.

But when learning chords and how they're built, isn't it fundamental to build them based off of the major scale? That was my only point. Lots of posters seem to really denigrate scales, but they are the foundation of harmony in no small part because they define the names of the intervals and define the syntax for spelling chords.
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Apologies for misunderstanding your earlier post. I agree with you 100% that learning the major scale (and I mean, really learning, not rote-memorizing a box pattern) is the foundation for studying Western music.

Mushroo said:
A good beginner exercise is to learn your 12 major scales... As Maria says in the song, "when you know the notes to sing, you can sing most anything."
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#67
Learning the major scale is learning music.

Learning the box pattern is learning to play bass.

Both are important and walk hand in hand. Knowing the scales without training your fingers to wiggle with precision and rhythm is just as pointless as learning how to read and write without ever learning to speak.
 
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#68
mambo4 said:
The 12 intervals are named in relation to the major scale, and we use them to describe scales and chords.

declaring which 'defines' which may be a matter of viewpoint.

To me it seems that intervals 'define' the terminology of both scales and chords, if anything

(removes pedantic hat)
Click to expand...
I agree; by defined I mean the same thing as "named in relation to". If naming is not the first part of a definition, then what is? And with a functionally descriptive name, naming can be the entirety of the definition.

What interval is a major 3rd? I suppose you could say two whole steps, but you could also say it is the interval between the root and 3rd degree of the major scale, which would then illuminate why it is called "a major third".
 
#70
HolmeBass said:
Chord naming is defined off the related major scale. Even "Cm" means a flatted third related to the major scale. So to imply a Lydian tonality there would be a #11 - which references C major, not C lydian. To me it's clear as day that the very naming of chords is built upon the related major scale. *That is where the numbers come from!*
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You know how I know you've never read George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization? :)
 
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#71
Mushroo said:
Apologies for misunderstanding your earlier post. I agree with you 100% that learning the major scale (and I mean, really learning, not rote-memorizing a box pattern) is the
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Bob_Ross said:
You know how I know you've never read George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept Of Tonal Organization? :)
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If he spells his chords differently than others he'd better put a warning up front. I appreciate a #11 to hint the Lydian tonality for me.
 
#72
HolmeBass said:
No, not when naming a chord it can't. Chords are named referenced to the major scale. Can you give me an instance when that is not the case? For example, Cm6 is not named in reference to the natural minor scale. The "6" refers to a major 6th, not a minor one.
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So how does this explain the Maj7 chord? If what you say we're true then the Maj7 would be default, ie just 7, and Dominant 7 would need additional notation...

I suppose what I'm saying is that chord naming is to some extent a collection of inconsistent conventions that cannot be further reduced in simplicity because of the way they have evolved. The major 6 in the Cm6 example and the 7 in my example are just how it is. If it helps to remember stuff by relating it to something we already know, like the major scale, then great, but the relationship is arbitrary and has little to do with how music works.
 
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#73
SteveCS said:
So how does this explain the Maj7 chord? If what you say we're true then the Maj7 would be default, ie just 7, and Dominant 7 would need additional notation...

I suppose what I'm saying is that chord naming is to some extent a collection of inconsistent conventions that cannot be further reduced in simplicity because of the way they have evolved. The major 6 in the Cm6 example and the 7 in my example are just how it is. If it helps to remember stuff by relating it to something we already know, like the major scale, then great, but the relationship is arbitrary and has little to do with how music works.
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The maj7 is an exception, but "7" is still, nonetheless, a reference to a scale degree. The idea that you can really understand chords without scales does not hold water. Scales define the syntax for spelling chords, even in the inconsistent 7/maj7 case.
 
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#74
Whousedtoplay said:
Let's take a look at the following picture with the "6" from wikipedia

View attachment 1087358
View attachment 1087360
View attachment 1087381
Just some standard Jazz Chord Types.
View attachment 1087373



From an interesting thesis, "Towards Automatic Extraction of Harmony Information from Music Signals" by Christopher Harte.
View attachment 1087375
View attachment 1087376 View attachment 1087377

Just a diagram of a Chord Definition.
View attachment 1087378
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Interesting. Some of it doesn't make sense to me - why does the V chord in the vi-ii-V-I example has a superscript 6? It is a simple triad and has neither an E or an A in it. What does the superscript 6 reference?

The part about a minor 6 chord having a non-flatted 6 was exactly my point.

The part about a C7 possibly containing the major 7 based on the diatonic (key) of the price of music is not something I have ever seen in a chart, and just seems mean. The only convention I have ever seen is C7 means C-E-G-Bb, if you want a B natural on top that would be Cmaj7.

Have you ever played a chart where C7 actually meant Cmaj7? I would consider that a violation of trust on the part of the composer. Still interesting to see the potential ambiguity.
 
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#76
HolmeBass said:
Interesting. Some of it doesn't make sense to me - why does the V chord in the vi-ii-V-I example has a superscript 6? It is a simple triad and has neither an E or an A in it. What does the superscript 6 reference?

The part about a minor 6 chord having a non-flatted 6 was exactly my point.

The part about a C7 possibly containing the major 7 based on the diatonic (key) of the price of music is not something I have ever seen in a chart, and just seems mean. The only convention I have ever seen is C7 means C-E-G-Bb, if you want a B natural on top that would be Cmaj7.

Have you ever played a chart where C7 actually meant Cmaj7? I would consider that a violation of trust on the part of the composer. Still interesting to see the potential ambiguity.
Click to expand...

The superscript 6 indicates a triad in 1st inversion (the 3rd is the lowest note). The interval from the 3rd to the root is a 6th. This type of notation has its origin in the "figured bass" style of Baroque-period keyboard accompaniment. Kind of like the Nashville Number System of 17th century Europe.

And to answer your other question, yes, I often work with a not-quite-music-literate songwriter who gives me charts written C7 when he actually means Cmaj7. I've learned to simply play the 1-3-5 and use my ears to hear the correct 7th, the first time we play through a new song.
 
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