Self taught vs instruction...

[rutrho]

So, I've been playing bass at for mmm, 18yrs now and I've been self taught the entire time, through books, reading music then playing it and uh, just making -ish up.

But lately I've been trying to branch out more and play more with more people and well, I need a lot of improvement on my ear, hearing other musicians and kind of what/when/how to be a bass player other than an octave down rhythm guitar... so this brings me to a point where I'm starting to look for a teacher again and well, thats kind of scary tbh as I don't "hear" music as well as a lot of other people do and um, its been kind of a problem trying to study music with others in the past.

I'm not sure how to really get past that part other than practice and shear stubbornness, which I can do in spades but if you put me down infront of someone with a guitar and tell me to play along I'm going to be hopeless. Give me charts or sheet music and I'll be able to do something then.

So, uh, like has finding instruction been helpful for any of y'all for ear training or transcribing or like developing better face to face skills with other musicians to communicate musically? I know that my general lack of ability to learn a song by ear is tangentially related to this and i'm hoping to get some more skill on that front as well.


I suppose my next question is how the heck do you find an instructor, esp one who might have experience with someone with audio processing issues. The audio processing stuff is a totally different ball of wax and I could go into it but I'll prob spare y'all.

 

[40Hz]

Sounds like you have all the details down but you're missing the framework to put all those details to work in the broader sense. Almost like memorizing vocabulary words and their spelling but never being taught grammar and sentence construction. Or story development.

Rather than more bass specific instruction you might benefit more from a course in music composition or improvisation. Those would focus on harmonic structure and the larger picture, and what makes up a good song in the broader sense. Because there are meta structures and patterns in music. And being able to go in cold and play along with something is knowing enough of those patterns to be able to anticipate where the song or person is likely to be going next.

If there's no instructor available where you for that are you can always try online courses. There's a lot of good ones out tgere. Many free or available for a nominal fee.

 

[catcauphonic]

Even tho my ear isn't the best, I hear you @rutrho! It takes me a long time to figure out the roots without looking at the guitarists fingers or asking for the chord structure ahead of time.

It's my understanding that a good ear can be developed with determination and dedication. I see there are several apps available (for free or inexpensive) though not specifically bass related, but that's ok. I might give a few a try.

Subbed here for idears

 

[LowRick]

I play for 12 years now and had my first lesson in 11 years just yesterday. Somehow, i lack a littlebit of technique i need with certain songs, so i asked for help on it. The instructor asked how my ears where and as it turns out, i'm pretty good at guessing which chord is which, but some training will do miracles. I believe him and will have a couple of lessons. Some people can really help in getting better. I like to teach myself things as i do in my job as well. Self taught is awesome and something to be proud of, but getting another angle from a pro is great as well

 

[Joe Nerve]

It is my belief that some people are born with "good ears" (the ability to pick notes and intervals out in a song), some people need to work a lot at it for a long time to get really good, and some people will have minimal skills - even with a lot of work. I reserve the right to be wrong on that last part though, because I don't really know the amount of time people put into it who just weren't getting it.

I fall into the 2nd category. I always had an "OK ear", but in the past 3 years I've gotten to a place I never thought I could/would. I can pretty much figure out new songs in real time these days, sometimes learning complete tunes in less time than the actual song (by jumping ahead and figuring out the arrangements later). Here are some of the things that were really helpful along the way.

First... playing as many tuneful melodies as I possibly could on the bass. Christmas carols, nursery rhyme like tunes, traditional songs work best. I'd pick any note on the bass and play Pop Goes The Weasel, Rudolf The Red Nose Reindeer, Mary Had a Little Lamb, Home on the Range... whatever. TV show themes worked well too. Anything I knew the melody of, I'd just feel out on the bass. That gave me a good idea of where things were in relation to each other on the neck.

I also spent a lot of time learning to hear the bass lines in songs. I used to use Windows Media player, now I use Transcribe. Learning to EQ songs to bring out the bass helps lots (and that doesn't mean cranking the low end. The bass is usually most discernible for me in the lower mids, with the upper frequencies tweaked just right) . Decent speakers that bring out the bass notes helps tons too. I don't know why, but bass lines are crystal clear in my car. In the house they're still muddied up a bit, despite my going through many different speaker configurations. I have no suggestion for finding what's best, but I know some systems make it next to impossible to hear the individual bass notes. That can make learning really frustrating. Experimentation is the only suggestion I have for that.

And finally, what pushed me over the top in the past few years... I learn songs while driving (or at other times when there's no bass around). I've been forced to do that because of my current band situation. We learn anywhere from 1 to 6 new songs a week and I'm forced to learn them away from my instrument. What I do is listen in the car and visualize where I think the notes are on the bass neck. I play the songs over and over and do the best I can, and then when I get home I put it to the test to see how on or off I was. In the beginning I was waaaaaaaay off, often. But after doing this for years now, that skill (like any other) has gotten tons better. Without consciously trying to, I got much better at hearing intervals and can now learn some songs just by listening. I know what it sounds like when going from a C to a G as opposed to a C to an F or D to G (G# or whatever) - that kind of thing. Repetition with practicing that while listening only, well... makes you better at it .

And an afterthought - 2 other things I've done lots of that definitely helped. Jamming with as many people as I possible could. Friendly people who allowed me to learn without judging, and jamming along to songs. I used to do that with LPs (cuz I'm old like that), but nowadays we're blessed with stuff like this.



Put a 1/2 an hour a day in jamming along to different tracks like that (even 15 minutes) and things will start happening.

Hope that helps at least one person, cuz it took me a long time to write .

 

[rutrho]

Even tho my ear isn't the best, I hear you @rutrho! It takes me a long time to figure out the roots without looking at the guitarists fingers or asking for the chord structure ahead of time.

It's my understanding that a good ear can be developed with determination and dedication. I see there are several apps available (for free or inexpensive) though not specifically bass related, but that's ok. I might give a few a try.

Subbed here for idears

Yeah, I feel like I'm getting there slowly, but dude. Its hard and slow going. More focused practice at home has been helping a little bit, but on the other hand its hella discouraging when my partner or the dude i used to date can sit down and hammer out the basic intervals and chord changes after hearing something once or a few measures in.
Like my wife got a uke on Friday last week and she's better at picking out chords on that already than I am, haha.

I really like realbook stuff because like, they're standards and there is structure there.

 

[rutrho]

Sounds like you have all the details down but you're missing the framework to put all those details to work in the broader sense. Almost like memorizing vocabulary words and their spelling but never being taught grammar and sentence construction. Or story development.

Rather than more bass specific instruction you might benefit more from a course in music composition or improvisation. Those would focus on harmonic structure and the larger picture, and what makes up a good song in the broader sense. Because there are meta structures and patterns in music. And being able to go in cold and play along with something is knowing enough of those patterns to be able to anticipate where the song or person is likely to be going next.

I think that is prob what I need to be looking into, but I have some major issues learning by ear still. Hopefully I'll be able to put more of these pieces together musically soon.

It is my belief that some people are born with "good ears" (the ability to pick notes and intervals out in a song), some people need to work a lot at it for a long time to get really good, and some people will have minimal skills - even with a lot of work. I reserve the right to be wrong on that last part though, because I don't really know the amount of time people put into it who just weren't getting it.

I fall into the 2nd category. I always had an "OK ear", but in the past 3 years I've gotten to a place I never thought I could/would. I can pretty much figure out new songs in real time these days, sometimes learning complete tunes in less time than the actual song (by jumping ahead and figuring out the arrangements later). Here are some of the things that were really helpful along the way.

And finally, what pushed me over the top in the past few years... I learn songs while driving (or at other times when there's no bass around). I've been forced to do that because of my current band situation. We learn anywhere from 1 to 6 new songs a week and I'm forced to learn them away from my instrument. What I do is listen in the car and visualize where I think the notes are on the bass neck. I play the songs over and over and do the best I can, and then when I get home I put it to the test to see how on or off I was. In the beginning I was waaaaaaaay off, often. But after doing this for years now, that skill (like any other) has gotten tons better. Without consciously trying to, I got much better at hearing intervals and can now learn some songs just by listening. I know what it sounds like when going from a C to a G as opposed to a C to an F or D to G (G# or whatever) - that kind of thing. Repetition with practicing that while listening only, well... makes you better at it .

Hope that helps at least one person, cuz it took me a long time to write .

It is helpful. I think I'm somewhere between the second and third categories, I can generally pick out a bassline in songs pretty well, in more aggressive genres as well, be it in car, at home on speakers (we got lucky with a good room for a stereo/bass practice) or on headphones. But uh. Figuring out whats going on note-wise without something to point me where to start is usually a pretty painful thing to hear.

The visualization of the neck/fingerboard is kind of something I already to do when I'm learning because I'm a highly visual/spatially aware sort of person and that sticks a LOT better for me mentally than hearing something, even repeated.
Honestly one of the things thats helped me the most recently is moving to 100% to fretless a year ago, it forced me to pay a LOT more attention to what I'm doing and how I'm playing and what progressions are happening and where everything is in relation to each other because it forced me to really get that awareness for playing in tube and what the feeling of a note is supposed to be.

Luckily the actual mechanics of playing and where everything is on the fingerboard is pretty much ingrained in my hands and muscle memory much more than the pitch of the notes.

 

[mambo4]

Can you tune your bass by ear? That's the door to ear training.

 

[40Hz]

I have some major issues learning by ear still. Hopefully I'll be able to put more of these pieces together musically soon.

Intervalic recognition and relationships (i.e. "by ear") is something that comes more naturally to some people than others. About the only thing to be done if it doesn't come easy for you is to start teaching your ears to recognize the sounds of the different intervals in a given key and their relationship to each other so that once you identify the root of the key your in, you'll know a 4th, 5th, 7th, etc. when you hear it. And from there is becomes relatively easy to know what chords are being played. And once you've got that you have the blueprint for the song since bass is largely about outlining chords and selecting any required passing notes that will better drive momentum and link the chord tones together. Which is why it's so important to know your fingerboard inside out. Ours is an instrument whose role is part art, part style, and part mathematics. And the intervals are the foundation (and numbers) we use to do our little thing.

There's some decent videos on youtube that can introduce you to learning to hear intervals. Good people to follow for instruction are Adam Neely, Rick Beato, and Scott Devine. Drop one of those names plus 'interval' into the search and you'll find a dozen or more videos by these guys related to ear training for intervals. Pick the one that makes the most sense to you and do the exercises. That's all it takes.

There's a saying in art schools that you don't teach an artist to draw or paint or sculpt. You educate their eyes to truly and accurately see what they're looking at or imagining. Once their physical and inner eye are trained to see, it becomes easy to draw or paint or sculpt something. Because that's just leaning about and practicing various techniques once the hard part (seeing) is mastered.

A musician's ears are like an artist's eyes. Once you can clearly hear and know what you're hearing, the rest is just doing the math and practicing.

 

[mattj1stc]

It's a tough call. I'm also self-taught, and I definitely went through a few different phases (starting more on the punk side - not being concerned with notes, theory, technique, prog metal - lots of technique, eventually needing to properly learn theory, etc.). It's been a long journey over several decades. Ultimately, I think finding a good teacher comes down to finding someone who is both a good player (someone who can make you better) and a good teacher (someone who can communicate that information to you). In my experience, I've found lots of people who are good players, but I've never connected with any good teachers. Maybe I've just had bad luck or unrealistic expectations, but most of the people I've found just want to show off how well they can play. I think there was a scene in the Simpsons like that where Homer plays a really simple pattern while the other guy solos over him. One of the strangest things about music (or the arts in general) is that you can be self-taught. I know there are some formal orchestra and jazz programs, and there's also Berkeley in Boston, but mostly there isn't a structured educational progression that you can follow when learning an instrument.

 

[dramatwist]

If you're going to pay someone for instruction, make damn sure they know what they're talking about. Buyer beware.
You might just be going through a "slump" in your self-teaching. Happens to all of us. Bon chance with whatever you decide.
The Beatles were self-taught, if that means anything to you and your goals.

 

[mobeme23]

there is a solid teacher up in redwood City, CA named Endre Tarczy.
He teaches at Gelb Music, as well as other spots around the bay (i think he lives in Santa Cruz area). might bee a good resource for you to see about working with a teacher.
i can send you his email address if you want.

also, Kai Eckhardt offers online (skype?) mentor-based lessons: Kai Eckhardt
might more more than what you are looking for, but he is a real master.

 

[bfields]

I put myself firmly in Joe's category #2. This stuff doesn't come naturally to me, but I've worked on it a lot over the years and gotten a lot better. And if you're teaching yourself, I think Joe's ideas are all great. There are also a few apps and online services that might help (I've used and liked "functional ear trainer" and "Meludia").

This is also a standard part of any college music curriculum, so for example maybe a local community college that offers night courses would work for you?

 

[micguy]

I am entirely self taught on bass (I did have violin lessons, but that was when I was 8 (which is a few decades back)). Anyway, stubbornness/persistence is your biggest asset - that'll get you quite far, if you apply it. As I was in college when I started playing bass, the way I learned was to put on the radio, and play along with whatever came on. Yes, at first I was "hopeless", but little by little I started playing some good notes, then a few more, then even more...and eventually...I'm quite fluent. One of the biggest benefits to learning this way is, when you find yourself at an audition, and someone starts playing something unfamiliar, you'll be more prepared than most folks - you've been learning to play with whatever comes along for years!

You'll eventually get to a point where the notes "fall under your fingers" - you hear something coming, and you play it more or less automatically. That takes quite a while, though - anyone I've ever known that seemed "naturally talented" at music, if you asked them, would admit to having put in LOTS of hours. I am no exception to that principle.

I learn a song or two a week at this point (sometimes more) - rehearsing for church gigs. Part of my motivation for working on things at this point is that there will be hundreds of people listening in a few days, and I don't want to be the weak link in the band.

I've actually learned to play bass twice - a wrist injury had me sidelined for a decade, and after that long of a layoff, I had to start over, pretty much from scratch. You can do this!

 

[dramatwist]

I think that is prob what I need to be looking into, but I have some major issues learning by ear still. Hopefully I'll be able to put more of these pieces together musically soon.



It is helpful. I think I'm somewhere between the second and third categories, I can generally pick out a bassline in songs pretty well, in more aggressive genres as well, be it in car, at home on speakers (we got lucky with a good room for a stereo/bass practice) or on headphones. But uh. Figuring out whats going on note-wise without something to point me where to start is usually a pretty painful thing to hear.

The visualization of the neck/fingerboard is kind of something I already to do when I'm learning because I'm a highly visual/spatially aware sort of person and that sticks a LOT better for me mentally than hearing something, even repeated.
Honestly one of the things thats helped me the most recently is moving to 100% to fretless a year ago, it forced me to pay a LOT more attention to what I'm doing and how I'm playing and what progressions are happening and where everything is in relation to each other because it forced me to really get that awareness for playing in tube and what the feeling of a note is supposed to be.

Luckily the actual mechanics of playing and where everything is on the fingerboard is pretty much ingrained in my hands and muscle memory much more than the pitch of the notes.

...you're on the right path... keep going...

 

[dalkowski]

If you're going to pay someone for instruction, make damn sure they know what they're talking about. Buyer beware.

And when you find that someone, bring specific, achievable goals that s/he can use to craft a lesson plan to help you focus and get you where you want to go.

Enjoy the journey!

 

[Groove Doctor]

I was taught applied theory in lessons: transcribe a song, then he explained the theory behind it to me. I understood it and remembered it by associating it with that song.

Go back and analyse songs you've already transcribed. Dig deeper into the theory. It really sharpens your ear, unlocks the mystery of music. You'll be seeing patterns throughout music in no time.

 

[BOOG]

Invalid Link Removed
This place is relatively close to (your profile location) you, up in San Mateo and they have the adult ("GradSchool") program. I suggest there because, up until very recently they focused solely on learning by ear. I struggle with it, too. Doesn't hurt to stop in and talk to them about some lessons. It helped me quite a bit.

 

[Mannyinnewyork]

I'm self taught, I don't worry about it now, but when I was younger I always felt it held me back. Could not learn to read music although I tried many, many times. I knew I'd probably never be a pro session player (although I did wind up playing many sessions) because of that limitation.

Just play, enjoy your musical journey.

 

[AGCurry]

I'm old and almost completely self-taught. Should also say that my first instruments were ukulele and guitar, so chords.

I could not afford songbooks, and there was no worldwide web. If I wanted to play a song, I had to listen and figure out the chords on my own. After a while, I started to recognize intervals and harmonic patterns common to 95% of western music. It does take effort and time, but I recommend this approach.

A theory/composition/harmony teacher can show you those things from an intellectual point of view. Integrating them into your playing is up to you.