Self taught vs instruction...

[glocke1]

Thats pretty much the conclusion I've been arriving at as well... at this point I've done lots of rote learning of everything and, well. Its showing.



Totally! I've really wanted to pick the DB up for a long time, the downside is I don't have space to stick a canoe inside my apartment...

yeah space is an issue..

its really a pretty different instrument than EB, and for me what little studying i've done has helped me get around better on EB..than there is the whole aspect of relying on your 100% and not using visual cues (frets) to get around.

again its one of those things that I don't ever expect to get really good at, just more or less looking at it as a tool to develop my EB skills further.

 

[rutrho]

yeah space is an issue..

its really a pretty different instrument than EB, and for me what little studying i've done has helped me get around better on EB..than there is the whole aspect of relying on your ears 100% and not using visual cues (frets) to get around.

again its one of those things that I don't ever expect to get really good at, just more or less looking at it as a tool to develop my EB skills further.

Totally!

 

[rutrho]

Found a few places near me that do instruction in a general approach to music. I'm hoping to sneak some jazz stuff in there so I can start working on getting a better idea of what I don't know.

Should be fun!

 

[Novarocker]

So, I've been playing bass at for mmm, 18yrs now and I've been self taught the entire time, through books, reading music then playing it and uh, just making -ish up.

But lately I've been trying to branch out more and play more with more people and well, I need a lot of improvement on my ear, hearing other musicians and kind of what/when/how to be a bass player other than an octave down rhythm guitar... so this brings me to a point where I'm starting to look for a teacher again and well, thats kind of scary tbh as I don't "hear" music as well as a lot of other people do and um, its been kind of a problem trying to study music with others in the past.

I'm not sure how to really get past that part other than practice and shear stubbornness, which I can do in spades but if you put me down infront of someone with a guitar and tell me to play along I'm going to be hopeless. Give me charts or sheet music and I'll be able to do something then.

So, uh, like has finding instruction been helpful for any of y'all for ear training or transcribing or like developing better face to face skills with other musicians to communicate musically? I know that my general lack of ability to learn a song by ear is tangentially related to this and i'm hoping to get some more skill on that front as well.


I suppose my next question is how the heck do you find an instructor, esp one who might have experience with someone with audio processing issues. The audio processing stuff is a totally different ball of wax and I could go into it but I'll prob spare y'all.

Sounds like you have all the details down but you’re missing the framework to put all those details to work in the broader sense. Almost like memorizing vocabulary words and their spelling but never being taught grammar and sentence construction. Or story development.

Rather than more bass specific instruction you might benefit more from a course in music composition or improvisation. Those would focus on harmonic structure and the larger picture, and what makes up a good song in the broader sense. Because there are meta structures and patterns in music. And being able to go in cold and play along with something is knowing enough of those patterns to be able to anticipate where the song or person is likely to be going next.

If there’s no instructor available where you for that are you can always try online courses. There’s a lot of good ones out tgere. Many free or available for a nominal fee.

It is my belief that some people are born with "good ears" (the ability to pick notes and intervals out in a song), some people need to work a lot at it for a long time to get really good, and some people will have minimal skills - even with a lot of work. I reserve the right to be wrong on that last part though, because I don't really know the amount of time people put into it who just weren't getting it.

I fall into the 2nd category. I always had an "OK ear", but in the past 3 years I've gotten to a place I never thought I could/would. I can pretty much figure out new songs in real time these days, sometimes learning complete tunes in less time than the actual song (by jumping ahead and figuring out the arrangements later). Here are some of the things that were really helpful along the way.

First... playing as many tuneful melodies as I possibly could on the bass. Christmas carols, nursery rhyme like tunes, traditional songs work best. I'd pick any note on the bass and play Pop Goes The Weasel, Rudolf The Red Nose Reindeer, Mary Had a Little Lamb, Home on the Range... whatever. TV show themes worked well too. Anything I knew the melody of, I'd just feel out on the bass. That gave me a good idea of where things were in relation to each other on the neck.

I also spent a lot of time learning to hear the bass lines in songs. I used to use Windows Media player, now I use Transcribe. Learning to EQ songs to bring out the bass helps lots (and that doesn't mean cranking the low end. The bass is usually most discernible for me in the lower mids, with the upper frequencies tweaked just right) . Decent speakers that bring out the bass notes helps tons too. I don't know why, but bass lines are crystal clear in my car. In the house they're still muddied up a bit, despite my going through many different speaker configurations. I have no suggestion for finding what's best, but I know some systems make it next to impossible to hear the individual bass notes. That can make learning really frustrating. Experimentation is the only suggestion I have for that.

And finally, what pushed me over the top in the past few years... I learn songs while driving (or at other times when there's no bass around). I've been forced to do that because of my current band situation. We learn anywhere from 1 to 6 new songs a week and I'm forced to learn them away from my instrument. What I do is listen in the car and visualize where I think the notes are on the bass neck. I play the songs over and over and do the best I can, and then when I get home I put it to the test to see how on or off I was. In the beginning I was waaaaaaaay off, often. But after doing this for years now, that skill (like any other) has gotten tons better. Without consciously trying to, I got much better at hearing intervals and can now learn some songs just by listening. I know what it sounds like when going from a C to a G as opposed to a C to an F or D to G (G# or whatever) - that kind of thing. Repetition with practicing that while listening only, well... makes you better at it .

And an afterthought - 2 other things I've done lots of that definitely helped. Jamming with as many people as I possible could. Friendly people who allowed me to learn without judging, and jamming along to songs. I used to do that with LPs (cuz I'm old like that), but nowadays we're blessed with stuff like this.



Put a 1/2 an hour a day in jamming along to different tracks like that (even 15 minutes) and things will start happening.

Hope that helps at least one person, cuz it took me a long time to write .

Amazing advice here. I agree with both and especially what @Joe Nerve said about ears. Can certainly be something learned, but for those that don't have it, it can be very hard at first in my experience. I lucked out twice, I have a good ear and I was ushered into concert band very young and lucky enough to join the school jazz band, as well as play both into and all through college. Truly a blessing, personally. Lastly I was lucky that all my teachers stressed and taught a lot of theory. Although I may not remember terminology, it all makes sense and made my ear immensely better.

I agree what @40Hz said about musical courses. I think those composition, theory and individual lessons would be a boon for you. The courses can be found everywhere, but classes can help with group think and applied theory lessons.

Additionally, but probably easiest to start is scales. Learn the structure/theory behind them. Then you won't need to memorize each, just know what steps you need. I don't have each note memorized, but I understand the patterns, and why they're that way. You only need to know one key of each type (major, minor, pentatonic, harmonic, etc) but once you do you know them all, it's just where you start. Then the patterns jump out and it doesn't matter whether you go up strings or frets or where on the fretboard you are, but you can do them all. Once you start hearing the relationship between each interval, it will all open up. Then you'll be able to know where you are in a song, what will or could come next and so on. Also helps figuring out what can and can't work.

Honestly I feel like hearing and feeling intervals is what "ears" are all about. Feeling is a huge part of it. But once you can do the scales and notice the interval sounds, and have a little bit of theory in, you'll be well on your way. That foundation and understanding will get you through it all. It's really just the fundamentals and the rest will come in time and practice. You can learn many ways, but there's a reason scales are drilled in in traditional schooling, especially classical/concert music, IMO of course.

There are of course individuals who learn better through memorization, but to me if you can understand it, you can adapt to anything you've never seen before.

Whew, hope it's not too much. Personally I hated all the schooling as I was going through it because I'm a quick learner for music at least. I just wanted to play! haha, but I'm forever grateful for every minute of it. Feel free to hit me up if you ever have questions anytime.

Oh one last thing, just when you think you've got it all, then you learn about modes....much fun tbh, best part is if you know the intervals there's almost zero learning curve for em.

 

[Novarocker]

I'm no expert, I was just a horn player in all my musical experience and schooling. Then just self taught on bass, where I feel like my understanding of harmonizing and interval really took off. I enjoy the groove more than anything.

I've learned that I know enough to get myself into trouble...much like everything I know.

 

[rutrho]

I'm no expert, I was just a horn player in all my musical experience and schooling. Then just self taught on bass, where I feel like my understanding of harmonizing and interval really took off. I enjoy the groove more than anything.

I've learned that I know enough to get myself into trouble...much like everything I know.

LOL from what I know about you, haha. yep.

As a kind of funny aside, I have some background in horns. Baritone though, I was SUPER good at making AWFUL sounds come out of that thing, so it didn't stick. But music in that range stuck around and I think its why having my basses in A makes sense. That Bb is always there to go home too.

But back to music, I'm super left brained so the theory makes sense but the feeling of music and intervals is something I have to really focus on, its getting better though. Playing more jazz melodies seems to help too.

 

[Novarocker]

LOL from what I know about you, haha. yep.

As a kind of funny aside, I have some background in horns. Baritone though, I was SUPER good at making AWFUL sounds come out of that thing, so it didn't stick. But music in that range stuck around and I think its why having my basses in A makes sense. That Bb is always there to go home too.

But back to music, I'm super left brained so the theory makes sense but the feeling of music and intervals is something I have to really focus on, its getting better though. Playing more jazz melodies seems to help too.

Haha yep, and what dya know I played the same all through school! Switched from trumpet in 5th grade. I couldn't make any noise beside honks on a clarinet and sax, don't get me started on how awful I am on bowed inst.

To me the melodic lines and harmonies that baritone/euphonium and French horn get dealt certainly influenced my ear. I noticed too when you're the one frequently playing one of the middle notes in a chord all the time it really helps your ear. That and just being in that ensemble setting trains your ear to listen to every part by default.

 

[bfields]

I noticed too when you're the one frequently playing one of the middle notes in a chord all the time it really helps your ear.

I remember hearing that said about JS Bach, where was that.... The only reference I can find right now is from Biography of Johann Sebastian Bach, his music and the viola :

"Forkel himself, pointed out that in chamber music Bach preferred to play the viola:

"In musical parties... he took pleasure in playing the viola. With this instrument he was, as if were, in the centre of harmony, whence he could best hear and enjoy it on both sides.""

 

[Novarocker]

I remember hearing that said about JS Bach, where was that.... The only reference I can find right now is from Biography of Johann Sebastian Bach, his music and the viola :

"Forkel himself, pointed out that in chamber music Bach preferred to play the viola:

"In musical parties... he took pleasure in playing the viola. With this instrument he was, as if were, in the centre of harmony, whence he could best hear and enjoy it on both sides.""

Thank you for the link, interesting read. Interesting quote. A lot of his and pachelbel's work has great harmonies and they both do justice implementing tension and release within melodies and harmonies.