Selling the bass part

[JimK]

Jason-
...make no mistake; Metheny's two recent trio albums(TRIO '99-'00 and TRIO LIVE)ARE JAZZ! I'm talking Jazz guitar in the vein of Jim Hall or very early Pat Martino.
I'm not really a Metheny fan, but I did pick up both TRIOS. Bill Stewart on drums *IS* bad! Larry Grenedier on URB is happenin', too. I strongly recommend TRIO LIVE(double disc).

BTW-
Kenny G(orelick)also plays tenor...

 

[eli]

Didn't see an emoticon, so in case you're not pulling our collective leg:

He plays soprano sax in the "smooth jazz" genre. He's one of the best known of the bunch. Sells a TON of records -- some originals, plenty of covers, commercial stuff like Christmas song collections, like that. Kinda like a Barbra Streisand for the instrumental 90's. Many scorn him as a poster boy for selling out; many wish they were him.

 

[Rockinjc]

Didn't see an emoticon - Well that’s because he does not evoke any emotion what so ever [in me]. In his favor I will say, his Day Job sure beats mine.

jc

 

[Boplicity]

Eli, what you said is pretty much what I said about Kenny G. Personally, I lIKE his work, most especially his recent album of jazz classics. That said, I have read many criticisms of him and heard many criticisms of him. I guess because some seem to feel "if it is commercial with broad appeal, it isn't jazz." I know people who can't stand Kenny G. They call him "sacharine and watered down." I don't.

What I said about Metheny, also does not include my opinion. I really like Pat Metheney...not all his work, but much of it. In fact I was thrilled to receive for Christmas a book of notation of his complete works.
But some folks criticize him too.

I'm not pulling anybody's collective leg in my statements about either Kenny G or Pat Metheney and I was surprised that what I was wrote was perceived as such an attempt. I remember reading in Jazziz magazine a few years back, Al De Meola's very pointed criticism of saxaphone players in the style of Kenny G, Boney James, Paul Hardcastle and others. What did he call their style of jazz? Bubblegum or something and decried the fact that FM radio does not play "better" jazz even in large markets like San Francisco.

Each to his own taste here at Talkbass. I have Paul Hardcastle on my bedroom stereo currently for getting dressed and making the bed and straightening up the closet music. Pat Metheney's "Secret Story" is a huge favorite of mine. I DO call that jazz.

What we really need here in another forum, perhaps, is a discussion of what is jazz? What is jazz to you folks; what is jazz to me? I call Kenny G commercial or smooth or easy jazz. Al Demeola probably would be less flattering in his assessment. I think it is clear, however, that jazz has many permutations and styles. Some styles may be borderline and others may be "purer" depending on each person's definition.

I'm not trying to pull people's legs here. What the hell for? What would I get out of it? Nobody knows me. I don't get paid to be here, that's for sure. If I'm wrong about something, OK. I am wrong. But I don't deliberately try to deceive. What for? At 57, I am too far along to be trying to deceive folks. It just isn't worth it. The payoff, if any, is too small.

jason oldsted

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by JimK

Too, why must audiences be "played down to"? I guess I shouldn't be surprised; current Jazz "fans" know more about Kenny G than guys like Sam Rivers, Braxton, James Carter, Chris Potter, et al(ALL LIVING & PLAYING TODAY).

Well, I've said before that the Jazz fans I know in the UK haven't heard of Kenny G and the first I heard about him in this context was through this forum.

I am aware that some of the radio station in London play stuff like this, but I don't think Jazz fans listen to these stations.

I go along to my local Jazz club every week and read 2 or 3 monthly UK Jazz publications and meet more jazz fans through playing. I'm actually quite encouraged that the audiences don't expect to be "played down to" - even if they are mostly "older" people. They are quite happy to support any new bands with original material. I have heard mumblings that people don't like electric bass and prefer the sound of double bass, but I've never heard anyone complain becuase a band played all original compositions.

I really believe that the Jazz audiences in the UK appreciate really good players. Now they might not know that their favourite alto player just used a diminished scale in an interesting way - but they do appreciate sophistication in the music and things that sound harmonically complex - I have heard people say that while they appreciate Billy Cobham's drumming they don't like his things where the harmonic movement is too static - too much funk and not enough development!

Of course everybody's got their own tastes and likes and dislikes, but I think they would resent people playing what they wanted to hear and would know if a player wasn't being honest. I think there is an intensity to the best Jazz performers/improvisers that can't be faked and audiences know this and won't be fooled.

Still I could be wrong and if Kenny G ever tours the UK then I will be interested to see whether the same people turn up! Wynton Marsalis is playing in my town in the near future and I'm going, but a bit doubtful about giving so much money for this. Every Jazz "educator" I meet in the UK is always very resentful about the amount of money he gets in subsidy and that this encourages conservatism, which is the last thing Jazz needs. I almost feel like a traitor for going to this!

 

[JimK]

Gorelick, Boney James, Najee, Candy Dulfer, et al are considered "Safe Sax".
Anyway, IMO, music is a conversation goin' between the players; too much of the Smooth genre is a sequenced rhythm section underneath a guy blowing a horn. No conversation goin' on. It's slick, commercial, lacks balls, too "safe", . Smacks a little too much of "PRODUCT"(IMO). If it floats one's boat, though...go for it.
Again, I say, compare these recent Trio albums with Metheny's "smooth" stuff; big difference(IMO).

Jason-
...you're correct about Jazz having many permutations(same goes for Rock). Jazz has a lot of "infighting", too. Many believe(d) '30s/'40s Swing to be "non-Jazz"(improvisation was at a minimum, too "arranged", created solely for dancing, etc).
A little later, Beboppers were dismissed as guys who didn't play "correctly".
Later, Free Jazz got(gets)dismissed as not "real" Jazz; improvivised MUSIC, yes, but "Jazz", no.
Then came Fusion; Jazz can't be played on electric instruments...
Then came Smooth.

Maybe if people weren't passionate about it, they wouldn't complain(?)

 

[eli]

Originally posted by JasonOldsted
Eli, what you said is pretty much what I said about Kenny G. Personally, I lIKE his work, most especially his recent album of jazz classics. That said, I have read many criticisms of him and heard many criticisms of him. I guess because some seem to feel "if it is commercial with broad appeal, it isn't jazz." I know people who can't stand Kenny G. They call him "sacharine and watered down." I don't.

What I said about Metheny, also does not include my opinion. I really like Pat Metheney...not all his work, but much of it. In fact I was thrilled to receive for Christmas a book of notation of his complete works.
But some folks criticize him too.

I'm not pulling anybody's collective leg in my statements about either Kenny G or Pat Metheney and I was surprised that what I was wrote was perceived as such an attempt.

jason oldsted

I'm sorry, really I am. Obviously I upset you and you're being really polite about it.

But if you'll check the post times you'll see that I was responding to rockinjc (end of page 2), but your response got in before mine. I was answering his question about who was Kenny G anyway. I was honestly surprised that jc hadn't heard of him. I never saw your post before I posted mine.

Sorry again.



[Edited by Eli on 01-23-2001 at 09:04 PM]

 

[furtim]

Kenny G is the musical anti-Christ.

I see the point we're trying to make with the connection to Swing, bebop, and Fusion. However, the very important thing which separates those three jazz styles from "Smooth jazz" is a move away from convention. Swing was a move away from convention in that it focussed on having a really strong rhythmn for dancing with some elements of improvisation, something that certainly didn't exist in pre-swing dance music. And the very earliest jazz wasn't the same kind of dance music, either. Bebop is an obvious change from the Swing norm which needs no explanation. Fusion brings electric instruments, as well as more deep-rooted changes in that it starts borrowing heavily from other musical styles, especially rock, classical, and what have you.

Smooth "jazz" is the extreme opposite of those three. It is a move away from the dance beats of Swing, from the free-style improvisation and unique harmonies (and non-harmonies) of Bebop, and the unique sounds of Fusion. I'll give it that. But what it substitutes for those three qualities is not something fresh, but the most basic building blocks of all the jazz styles which preceeded it. It's just a bunch of scales and arpeggios on the solo section. The kinda stuff real jazz players warm up on and might quote occasionally, but never base a whole solo on. That's the difference. In my opinion, the Smooth players have chosen to rein themselves in with convention and have removed the spirit of innovation and experimentation which has been the single most important part of all jazz styles to date.

If you like that stuff, that's your right, certainly. But I wouldn't call it jazz.

 

[JimK]

'30s Swing also reached a point when it became "smooth"...it was "Jazz" that was pretty much arranged(little improv)for dancing(a target audience). Today's Smooth Jazz(which many say evolved directly from '70s Fusion), has become, IMO, a manufactured PRODUCT for a specific demographic(ie, target audience). Believe me, I have lapped up plenty of the GRP/Grusin/Ritenour releases + Spyro Gyra's + The Rippingtons + a couple of the G-man's.
I can understand the concept that the average listener doesn't want to be "challenged"; I would think most here would agree that listening is a skill that requires constant tweaking & vigilance...so, if Smooth is your bag, check out some of the musicians from the Hard Bop/Soul Jazz Era; guys like Lee Morgan, Horace Silver, Cannonball Adderly, Grant Green, etc. Their stuff ain't so far out that it's unrelatable.