sensitivity or frequency response for cabs?

[Queg]

So I get the reality that a "colored" cab might be a better choice than a "transparent" or "flat" cab, but how is that at odds with the request for better standards in providing specs/measurements?

Standardized specs may not be as important in selecting a bass cab as it is for studio equipment or home hifi, but is that really a valid excuse for the manufacturer not to provide them..?

 

[KJung]

So I get the reality that a "colored" cab might be a better choice than a "transparent" or "flat" cab, but how is that at odds with the request for better standards in providing specs/measurements?

Standardized specs may not be as important in selecting a bass cab as it is for studio equipment or home hifi, but is that really a valid excuse for the manufacturer not to provide them..?

Three topics here IMO:

1) 'Flat', 'Transparent'.... IMO, forget about it with bass backline amplification!

2) MORE information, super detailed plots and massive amounts of info on one part of the signal chain of bass amplification... waste of time IMO. Again, tells you very little without taking into account the bass head voicing, and the specific input signal (bass, strings, technique, etc.). The presence of significant interactions makes 'main effects' information (i.e., detailed info on just one of the interacting components) useless at best, misleading at worst.

3) Accuracy of information with the typically provided -3db low end point and SPL at 1K... of course... NO excuse for inaccurate info, whether it be weight, or basic low end response, or upper mid presence/SPL.

IMO... I enjoy the topic and pretty much spend much of every waking moment that I'm not practicing, hanging with my wife, or doing my day job involved in the topic of bass backline issues (nothing to be proud of, of course!).

 

[rpsands]

I think that's a bunch of crap. Companies like markbass put out plots showing how the EQ on their amplifiers affects the signal and it helps a lot to make informed decisions. Why not do the same for cabs? Because your bass might affect it too?

What if you like like the sound of your bass direct and that's the sound you want -- how can you know whether a cab will reproduce that? You have to test it?Bah humbug.

Maybe they shouldn't put all this stuff in the marketing but it damn well should be in the manual. All this talk is doing is making me even more hardline on this.

 

[KJung]

I think that's a bunch of crap. Companies like markbass put out plots showing how the EQ on their amplifiers affects the signal and it helps a lot to make informed decisions. Why not do the same for cabs? Because your bass might affect it too?

What if you like like the sound of your bass direct and that's the sound you want -- how can you know whether a cab will reproduce that? You have to test it?Bah humbug.

Maybe they shouldn't put all this stuff in the marketing but it damn well should be in the manual. All this talk is doing is making me even more hardline on this.

Totally disagree. And, how EQ impacts the signal is only a VERY small part of the voicing of the amp, much less the entire signal chain. And what is the 'sound of your bass direct'? Every system has coloration.. DI's, studio monitors, front of house PA systems... everything.

Again, I respect your point, and sorry you are frustrated. My guess is, you represent less that .01% of bass players, and also, my feeling is your reliance on specs is a bit misguided (i.e., thinking that you can 'predict' the sound of a bass backline system from detailed cab specs without knowing much about anything else in the system).

 

[thudfromafar]

I don't think it's completely about predicting the sound. But, if you are familiar with your bass and technique, I do think it could be possible to make generalizations in how things would sound.

 

[KJung]

I don't think it's completely about predicting the sound. But, if you are familiar with your bass and technique, I do think it could be possible to make generalizations in how things would sound.

+1 there, but I can actually do that with one single spec in a one way or two way (woofer/tweeter) cab... the 1K SPL. There is no free lunch. A high cab SPL as it is measured currently at 1K across most manufacturers, means lots of upper mids coming out of the driver. That means a relatively bright, grindy tone. It also means BY DEFINITION, that the low end is going to be less extended and tighter. That's about the level of info that is at least somewhat useful in identifying a smooth, open, polite, deep cab versus a punchy, grindy, bright cab.

Again, without knowing much more info about the performance of the rest of the signal chain, any more information is of questionable usefulness IMO and IME, which probably explains why bass players have never asked for it, and manufacturers have not seen it as being either a sales tool nor a help to their customers.

If you see a high 1K SPL and a very low -3db bass roll-off point, then believe the 1K SPL.... I've found that is relatively accurate with most manufacturers (i.e., I've found a relatively high correlation between the nature of the low end and the brightness in the upper mids between actual cab tone and published 1K SPL)... the -3db is the one that tends to be fantasy

 

[IronMaiden]

I'd like to know a lot more about my cabs to be honest. But maybe a better option is for the companies to show us maybe just a few more specs and have all of them be accurate instead of fudging them.

I guess I would be alright with a more accurate -3db roll off down low plus a readout of -3db on top and more SPL specs than just at 1K. Probably one at 100Hz and maybe add a couple like 600HZ and 40Hz. A chart of a full sine sweep would be cool but I think maybe just a couple more points would be good enough for now.

 

[Queg]

+1 there, but I can actually do that with one single spec in a one way or two way (woofer/tweeter) cab... the 1K SPL. There is no free lunch. A high cab SPL as it is measured currently at 1K across most manufacturers, means lots of upper mids coming out of the driver. That means a relatively bright, grindy tone. It also means BY DEFINITION, that the low end is going to be less extended and tighter. That's about the level of info that is at least somewhat useful in identifying a smooth, open, polite, deep cab versus a punchy, grindy, bright cab.

Again, without knowing much more info about the performance of the rest of the signal chain, any more information is of questionable usefulness IMO and IME, which probably explains why bass players have never asked for it, and manufacturers have not seen it as being either a sales tool nor a help to their customers.

If you see a high 1K SPL and a very low -3db bass roll-off point, then believe the 1K SPL.... I've found that is relatively accurate with most manufacturers (i.e., I've found a relatively high correlation between the nature of the low end and the brightness in the upper mids between actual cab tone and published 1K SPL)... the -3db is the one that tends to be fantasy

Curious, doesn't the fEarful 15/6 measure relatively high 1k SPL? In that case, would you describe its tone as "punchy, grindy, bright"?

 

[KJung]

Curious, doesn't the fEarful 15/6 measure relatively high 1k SPL? In that case, would you describe its tone as "punchy, grindy, bright"?

Reread my post..... That's why I specify a one way or two way cab WITH TWEETER (which is about 98% of the bass cabs out there right now). Once you start chopping of the top of drivers with crossovers and adding mid drivers, etc., things change. That voicing is not my thing, but is yet another voicing approach... relatively deep lows, and relatively present, even midrange... but very little grind. And, the nature of the midrange is quite different than the upper mids coming out of the top of the driver (seems purer and less grindy). Not sure if frequency plots would really represent that very different 'character' to those frequencies.

 

[JimmyM]

Not if you want frequencies that are simply not able to be reproduced by your cabinet e.g. very lows, for example.

the 410hlf proves a cab doesn't need to be flat to get those lows

 

[tombowlus]

Curious, doesn't the fEarful 15/6 measure relatively high 1k SPL? In that case, would you describe its tone as "punchy, grindy, bright"?

Apparently only if you add the tweeter option to the fEarful design...

 

[KJung]

Apparently only if you add the tweeter option to the fEarful design...

Nope.... just extends up top more (and now you have a true 3 way cab)... inherent sound of the cab is identical (i.e., the specs wouldn't change at all below 4K or whever the tweeter is crossed over. Rules really do change with those mid driver cabs... nice stuff if the tone fits your goals!

 

[Queg]

Reread my post..... That's why I specify a one way or two way cab WITH TWEETER (which is about 98% of the bass cabs out there right now). Once you start chopping of the top of drivers with crossovers and adding mid drivers, etc., things change. That voicing is not my thing, but is yet another voicing approach... relatively deep lows, and relatively present, even midrange... but very little grind. And, the nature of the midrange is quite different than the upper mids coming out of the top of the driver (seems purer and less grindy). Not sure if frequency plots would really represent that very different 'character' to those frequencies.

Got it.

Seriously wondering as I've been considering building a fEarful and your comments expressing dislike for the smooth, non-grindy sound has stayed my hand .. I still might try one out, but I appreciate your lone voice of dissent amongst the din of fEarful raves..

Good point that this is an example of a characteristic ("smooth", "grindy" etc) that may not even show up in charts and specs. I assume they can only be known from direct experience or knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of various drivers, driver combination's and crossovers...

 

[KJung]

Got it.

Seriously wondering as I've been considering building a fEarful and your comments disliking the smooth, non-grindy sound has stayed my hand .. I still might try it out, but I appreciate your lone voice of dissent amongst the din of fEarful raves..

So would these types of characteristics ("smooth", "grindy" etc) even show up in charts and specs, or can they only be known from direct experience or knowledge of the idiosyncrasies of various drivers and combination's?

Don't get me wrong, those mid driver cabs are AWESOME. They just have their own sound like every other cab.

I have a bunch of clips of various fEarful type cabs made by LDS (LDS has been making mid driver loaded cabs for many years now) in both my iComposition homepage (link in my profile) and also on my youtube home page (although those are all three way cabs). Nice stuff... just not my thing.

My feeling is that this sort of character would be difficult to communicate. I'm sure it could be, but not so that anyone without an EE degree could understand it. Pure IMO there.

 

[rpsands]

It's simple as hell beyond belief to communicate. If you're t+5-10db louder in the upper mids than you are down low, and have lots of peaks and valleys, you're going to get grindy midrange.

I could point out exactly what causes "grindy midrange" on an Fr chart with ease and I am barely educated at all.

The fEarful mid driver has a very flat upper midrange with almost no distortion (lots of peaks and dips).

 

[rpsands]

People have this idea that reading an FR chart is super hard...reading it for general ideas of tone is not hard at all. If it's a lot louder in the upper mids than it is down low it's going to sound thinner and grindier.

A big boost in the upper bass (150hz) will sound boomy and thick.

It's not an exact predictor of tone but it can give you a LOT of close approximation. Looking at the Jack vs. Neo 410 chart is EXTREMELY enlightening if you have heard both cabs (which I have).

 

[KJung]

It's simple as hell beyond belief to communicate. If you're t+5-10db louder in the upper mids than you are down low, and have lots of peaks and valleys, you're going to get grindy midrange.

I could point out exactly what causes "grindy midrange" on an Fr chart with ease and I am barely educated at all.

The fEarful mid driver has a very flat upper midrange with almost no distortion (lots of peaks and dips).

It's even simpler than that It you have one way or two way cab with tweeter (i.e., no mid driver and a typical 4K or higher tweeter crossover/lo pass), and a high 1K SPL, then you will have grindy upper midrange Don't really need to see a chart for that.

Just like off axis response... don't really need to see the measurement... the bigger the cone, the more beaming in that upper midrange area. Don't need to see tests, don't need to see plots

 

[rpsands]

You can't know the degree of bass response possible, you can't know the inherent boost in the upper bass, ou can't know how high the 10s really extend on-axis, and all sorts of things.

There is a lot more to the character of a two way cabinet than the tweeter crossover and how loud it is at 1khz. Sheesh. Talk about oversimplifying.

Also, off-axis performance can vary hugely between even drivers of the same size (based on driver design elements like dustcap shape.size) and so on. The 'source width' doesn't tell the entire story.

 

[agedhorse]

It's simple as hell beyond belief to communicate. If you're t+5-10db louder in the upper mids than you are down low, and have lots of peaks and valleys, you're going to get grindy midrange.

I could point out exactly what causes "grindy midrange" on an Fr chart with ease and I am barely educated at all.

The fEarful mid driver has a very flat upper midrange with almost no distortion (lots of peaks and dips).

There are other factors in midrange voicing as well, including intentional distortion due to perhaps a cone with design flex, management of back-wall reflections that pass through the cone paper time offset from the initial impluse (the depth of the cabinet changes delta-t) and the polar pattern versus frequency. The midrange voicing difference may also vary relative to level.

I think the actual voicing (sound, feel, playability) involves a lot more than JUST the frequency response. I would also suggest that almost no distortion is not a function of peaks and dips but (also) a function of spectrum that is added to the sound that is not present in the original signal. Musically related distortion may be something that a particular pleyer or music style is looking for but non-musical distortion is something that rarely sounds pleasing or desireable.

 

[rpsands]

Obviously, those very complex things play a role, but you can tell a lot more with an FR chart than without one. Especially if you have a 1w/1m chart and a 1/8 or 1/2 power chart or something along those lines.