Separating the art from the artist

[Fynn]

Something that I've found to be more or less difficult, but always be on my mind, in my time enjoying music, is trying to separate the art from the artist. There is a lot that can be said about this, and the reality is, the world ISN'T black and white. It's endless amounts of shades of gray. Nobody is ultimately evil, and nobody is ultimately good. Once I realized that, I came to the conclusion that when I like a piece of music, I shouldn't care who it came from. But that isn't always so easy.
When I'm thinking about this, or when I encounter this issue, it's usually because of politics. Politics of course aren't straight forward, and I would say nobody has the perfect answer. It's all about finding the best compromise.
Knowing that, I get very annoyed when people put politics into media that isn't inherently meant to portray politics. Whether I agree with the given position, or I don't, I don't feel good about artists who suddenly, seemingly randomly, get political. It always leaves a sour aftertaste for me. In a way it feels like those door to door salesmen, where you just go about your day and suddenly somone confronts you with something that you didn't think about, or don't even care for at all.
Even when an artist is spouting out a message that I wholeheartedly agree with, it makes me feel sick. How confident do you have to be in your own opinions to be fine with potentially influencing millions of people?

There have been many musicians, and sometimes even whole bands, that I have had a bad feeling about because of a statement they made. I try my best to see past that, and enjoy the music, but it just doesn't work that easily. I'm not gonna name specific artists, but I can think of at least 4 that I have stopped listening to for a while, because I couldn't get myself to stop thinking about them getting super political at some point. And only one of them can really be considered somewhat punk...


I doubt there is anything that people can tell me to help with this issue, but if you have a method, or a thought that might help, I would really appreciate the input!




PS:
I know I'm mentioning politics, but this really isn't meant as a political discussion of course. I hope this is still within the boundaries of the Talkbass rules!

 

[lomo]

In today's volatile, sadly divided world, it's hard to get around this unless one lives under a rock. I can accept that someone whose views I despise can make great music. This has always been the case........ BUT I often refuse to pay for the music of someone I feel is contributing negatively to society. That's my right and I exercise it freely.

 

[Pdaddy1978]

If I held their actions against their art, I'm not sure there would be ANYBODY for me to listen to or watch, or read.
With few exceptions I've always been able to separate art from artist.
People I love among friends and family, not so much. For example:
My dad, a WW2 vet, loved Bing Crosby. But my dear saintly mom couldn't forgive his transgressions involving his kids.
But even I have limits, I'm looking at you Gary Glitter. Luckily I didn't like his "art" even before we knew what a dirt bag he was.
And for me, politics never color my opinion. There's just too many nut jobs and degenerates that make music and movies I love.

 

[groovaholic]

It's tough to do!

One of my favorite bands was Neurosis - but a few years ago, their singer/main songwriter Scott Kelly announced his retirement with a statement admitting to years of physical and emotional abuse of his wife and children:

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/29/1119972363/neurosis-scott-kelly-admits-to-abusing-wife-and-children

When listening to the band means that the voice and thoughts of an abuser are in my ears...it's just not possible for me to enjoy their music anymore.
Seems like the rest of the band felt the same - they called BS on his public "apology".

 

[Killing Floor]

Sweatty Teddy could blow up the moon and Stranglehold is still a kickass song.

Tom Cruise jumped on a sofa and I was taught never to jump on furniture. But MI films are fun.

I do my very best to compartmentalize someone’s work product from their personal life. Especially if I don’t know them personally.

 

[beaglesandbass]

When it comes to political leanings, I couldn’t care less. I’m much less likely to listen to a band if one of the band members commits a crime (usually against a person). Anti-Flag is a good example. They’re a far left punk band, some of which I agree with, some not to much. Their bassist is very talented and has some very tasty bass lines. The singer, however, has been accused of rape, by many women. That band is much harder for me to listen to now. I probably wouldn’t at all if the bass wasn’t so great.

 

[JazznFunk]

My feelings about this are always best summed up with this analogy: There's a restaurant which makes the best versions of X and X2 foods that I've ever found. I love the place. Go there at least once a week. Then it comes out from firsthand accounts that the owner is absolutely atrocious toward his staff, is abusive toward them, and who has a history of this behavior (and worse) in their personal life than was previously public knowledge. I'm not going to eat at that restaurant anymore.

 

[kleinenenten]

Political thoughts aren't a big deal to me, but actions are. A recent case in point:

The leader and main songwriter of one of my favorite bands of all time was involved in the events of January 6th. This was not a surprise to me, as he has openly worn his politics on his sleeve for years. I don't always agree, but as Americans, we have the right to disagree and the responsibility to do it civilly. I would argue a riot isn't civil. When I found out that musician was involved in January 6th, I stopped listening to him and his band. I've actually considered listening again recently, but it's been 4 years as is. For a band that was absolutely my favorite band for years, 4 years is a long time. And it's likely his career as a musician is over, as many people surely won't want to work with him, whether it be bandmates, venues, or other associates.

I guess in short what I'm saying is that I love music, and I love ideas, and I love the differences and discourse inherent in all the various iterations of music and ideas, but when the actions in support either of them become so uncivil, it's hard for me to justify supporting someone. And I find that holds true no matter which end of the political spectrum someone is on. I know there are TONS of musicians whose politics are very different from mine. And I respect that, as long as they are also respectful of my ideas.

 

[JazznFunk]

Even when an artist is spouting out a message that I wholeheartedly agree with, it makes me feel sick. How confident do you have to be in your own opinions to be fine with potentially influencing millions of people?

There have been many musicians, and sometimes even whole bands, that I have had a bad feeling about because of a statement they made. I try my best to see past that, and enjoy the music, but it just doesn't work that easily. I'm not gonna name specific artists, but I can think of at least 4 that I have stopped listening to for a while, because I couldn't get myself to stop thinking about them getting super political at some point. And only one of them can really be considered somewhat punk...

The way I see THIS particular bucket 'o fish is that artists are citizens and pay taxes and have the same rights as anyone else - artists are free to say and do what they want on stage. If you know where an artist stands and don't want to hear them speak on it if they have a history of being vocal at their shows about certain things..... you as a consumer have a right not to attend the show or buy the music. But they have every right to conduct themselves as they see fit within the bounds of the law and the right to free speech. The 'shut up and sing' cancel culture movement toward artists is quite honestly a product of the last quarter century, and it needs to wither away, IMO.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Something that I've found to be more or less difficult, but always be on my mind, in my time enjoying music, is trying to separate the art from the artist. There is a lot that can be said about this, and the reality is, the world ISN'T black and white. It's endless amounts of shades of gray. Nobody is ultimately evil, and nobody is ultimately good. Once I realized that, I came to the conclusion that when I like a piece of music, I shouldn't care who it came from. But that isn't always so easy.
When I'm thinking about this, or when I encounter this issue, it's usually because of politics. Politics of course aren't straight forward, and I would say nobody has the perfect answer. It's all about finding the best compromise.
Knowing that, I get very annoyed when people put politics into media that isn't inherently meant to portray politics. Whether I agree with the given position, or I don't, I don't feel good about artists who suddenly, seemingly randomly, get political. It always leaves a sour aftertaste for me. In a way it feels like those door to door salesmen, where you just go about your day and suddenly somone confronts you with something that you didn't think about, or don't even care for at all.
Even when an artist is spouting out a message that I wholeheartedly agree with, it makes me feel sick. How confident do you have to be in your own opinions to be fine with potentially influencing millions of people?

There have been many musicians, and sometimes even whole bands, that I have had a bad feeling about because of a statement they made. I try my best to see past that, and enjoy the music, but it just doesn't work that easily. I'm not gonna name specific artists, but I can think of at least 4 that I have stopped listening to for a while, because I couldn't get myself to stop thinking about them getting super political at some point. And only one of them can really be considered somewhat punk...


I doubt there is anything that people can tell me to help with this issue, but if you have a method, or a thought that might help, I would really appreciate the input!




PS:
I know I'm mentioning politics, but this really isn't meant as a political discussion of course. I hope this is still within the boundaries of the Talkbass rules!

My question is how did you become so sensitive? Why would anybody need to be “offended” with what somebody says about something that has no meaning to them?

In the USA there is a constitutional guarantee of free speech. There is no constitutional guarantees to prevent one from being offended by somebody stating an opinion or topic of discussion. Me? I’m not about to waste my emotional bandwidth when somebody is a speaking nonsense or is just being a jack wagon. It’s best to ignore it. An @ss is an @ss and there is no need to get upset about it.

 

[Fynn]

My question is how did you become so sensitive? Why would anybody need to be “offended” with what somebody says about something that has no meaning to them?

In the USA there is a constitutional guarantee of free speech. There is no constitutional guarantees to prevent one from being offended by somebody stating an opinion or topic of discussion. Me? I’m not about to waste my emotional bandwidth when somebody is a speaking nonsense or is just being a jack wagon. It’s best to ignore it. An @ss is an @ss and there is no need to get upset about it.

If I knew why exactly that hits me so hard, I would probably have figured out a way to deal with it by now.
I feel like a big part of it is the over politicization of social media. Recently Instagram came out with a feature to allow users to restrict political content from showing up on your feed. I immediately turned that on. I feel like I get confronted so much with this stuff in my day to day life, that it's just a shower of negativity, because even when I agree with the things, I know that there are people who don't. And unless it's an actual constructive discussion, it's usually just polirization, especially on social media. That's why I choose the door to door salesman analogy. I'm not looking for that stuff, but it just finds it's way into my life.

I think there is a certain threshhold of how much negativity someone can experience in their life, even when it's just indirectly, before it becomes too much to bear. Other examples might be doctors and nurses who become depressed, despite doing a good job and being a net positive. Or journalists who encounter a lot of tragic situations.
Of course someones passing isn't the same as someone being emotional about politics, but the bucket can still be filled, even if it's only small droplets over a long long time. I would assume at some point in the past couple years my bucket just filled up and I didn't have a chance to take a break from all of that stuff.

 

[Pdaddy1978]

This reminds me of the whole Dixie Chicks fiasco some years back.
I knew a great many people who swore off their music after their very public comments.
I said at the time and stand by today that they had every right to say anything they wanted to.
However....
The record buying and ticket buying public has rights too. And people respond with their wallets. If your gonna say something out loud, be prepared to accept the backlash.
It would cause ME to be careful if my livelihood was on the line.

 

[Fynn]

The way I see THIS particular bucket 'o fish is that artists are citizens and pay taxes and have the same rights as anyone else - artists are free to say and do what they want on stage. If you know where an artist stands and don't want to hear them speak on it if they have a history of being vocal at their shows about certain things..... you as a consumer have a right not to attend the show or buy the music. But they have every right to conduct themselves as they see fit within the bounds of the law and the right to free speech. The 'shut up and sing' cancel culture movement toward artists is quite honestly a product of the last quarter century, and it needs to wither away, IMO.

But a professional artist is also someone who provides a service for money. That's why I draw the distinction between punk bands and other musicians. Because when you pay money to watch a punk band, then you sort of expect stuff like that. Not necessarily from every punk band, but I'm not surprised by people like that being anti establishment or stuff like that.
I don't have Twitter/X and don't follow any artists for their personal views. If Billy Gibbons (I choose him specifically because he seems pretty apolitical) were to post something about politics on his Instagram, I wouldn't care much. If I went to one of his concerts and suddenly he started talking about politics, I would be at the very least disappointed.

Yes, they have the same rights, but famous musicians and artists are definitely not like the average citizen. That's a whole nother can of worms, but the reality is, even oldschool musicians are what people might call influencers. And I would argue most musicians are very well aware of that, for better or for worse.

 

[JazznFunk]

If I knew why exactly that hits me so hard, I would probably have figured out a way to deal with it by now.
I feel like a big part of it is the over politicization of social media. Recently Instagram came out with a feature to allow users to restrict political content from showing up on your feed. I immediately turned that on. I feel like I get confronted so much with this stuff in my day to day life, that it's just a shower of negativity, because even when I agree with the things, I know that there are people who don't. And unless it's an actual constructive discussion, it's usually just polirization, especially on social media. That's why I choose the door to door salesman analogy. I'm not looking for that stuff, but it just finds it's way into my life.

I think there is a certain threshhold of how much negativity someone can experience in their life, even when it's just indirectly, before it becomes too much to bear. Other examples might be doctors and nurses who become depressed, despite doing a good job and being a net positive. Or journalists who encounter a lot of tragic situations.
Of course someones passing isn't the same as someone being emotional about politics, but the bucket can still be filled, even if it's only small droplets over a long long time. I would assume at some point in the past couple years my bucket just filled up and I didn't have a chance to take a break from all of that stuff.

My friend, you nailed it. Social media has been the absolute worst thing for mental health and over-exposure to content of all forms - and disinformation as well. I saw a lot of people visibly and verbally upset by the TikTok ban stunt, who said they were 'taking refuge' in RedNote (another more problematic app) and on BlueSky. My personal feeling, having grown up with and without the internet AND having gone through my youth without social media is this: we all need less social media and more personal connection in general. I don't have TikTok, don't have X/Twitter, and if I could find a way to separate my band/music accounts on Meta from my personal page(s) and delete it all, I would. Unfortunately, we can't separate those music/business pages. TalkBass has been a wonderful true sense of community since the day I joined 25 years ago. I don't get that feeling on social media at all. We should all be wise to limit our consumption, or give it up completely.

 

[JazznFunk]

This reminds me of the whole Dixie Chicks fiasco some years back.
I knew a great many people who swore off their music after their very public comments.
I said at the time and stand by today that they had every right to say anything they wanted to.
However....
The record buying and ticket buying public has rights too. And people respond with their wallets. If your gonna say something out loud, be prepared to accept the backlash.
It would cause ME to be careful if my livelihood was on the line.

And that is where the 'shut up and sing' mess started - well before social media - because of the centralized nature of the inner workings of country music's mainstream hierarchy. There's a whole lot of detail and nuance to that situation that isn't permissible per forum rules that one could go into.

 

[Fynn]

This reminds me of the whole Dixie Chicks fiasco some years back.
I knew a great many people who swore off their music after their very public comments.
I said at the time and stand by today that they had every right to say anything they wanted to.
However....
The record buying and ticket buying public has rights too. And people respond with their wallets. If your gonna say something out loud, be prepared to accept the backlash.
It would cause ME to be careful if my livelihood was on the line.

That's why I'm surprised that these sort of things happen at all. If not because of selfawarness of the fact that as a famous artist you are potentially leading people in wrong directions, at the very least you should understand that your whole career can be over with one sentence.

 

[JazznFunk]

But a professional artist is also someone who provides a service for money. That's why I draw the distinction between punk bands and other musicians. Because when you pay money to watch a punk band, then you sort of expect stuff like that. Not necessarily from every punk band, but I'm not surprised by people like that being anti establishment or stuff like that.
I don't have Twitter/X and don't follow any artists for their personal views. If Billy Gibbons (I choose him specifically because he seems pretty apolitical) were to post something about politics on his Instagram, I wouldn't care much. If I went to one of his concerts and suddenly he started talking about politics, I would be at the very least disappointed.

Yes, they have the same rights, but famous musicians and artists are definitely not like the average citizen. That's a whole nother can of worms, but the reality is, even oldschool musicians are what people might call influencers. And I would argue most musicians are very well aware of that, for better or for worse.

Some artists are very vocal about 'mainstream' views. Some are very vocal about views which oppose the 'mainstream'. In this day and age if you don't know where a particular artist lands, that's not the artist's fault, IMO. And they very much are average citizens when it comes to the same rights, responsibilities, and freedoms as the rest of us. We as musicians, even if we are only performing locally or regionally, are public figures the same as any larger artist is - especially if we have a social media presence.

A professional artist is indeed someone who provides a service for money. The punk band who charges $5 is a professional artist in the same way that the bigger name artist charging $50 a ticket.... they both get money to perform. Even if both artists played a free concert, it doesn't remove their right to say and do as they choose on stage. If you don't like it as an audience member, you are free to leave.

 

[JazznFunk]

That's why I'm surprised that these sort of things happen at all. If not because of selfawarness of the fact that as a famous artist you are potentially leading people in wrong directions, at the very least you should understand that your whole career can be over with one sentence.

There's never a convenient time to say what may be an inconvenient truth. If everyone waited until the least consequential time to speak truth to an issue.... history would be very different in many different ways.

 

[gln1955]

Back in late 60's-early 70's, I was very supportive of acts that criticized the Vietnam war. I knew people whop paid the ultimate price there and many other friends and family that were drafted. Now, I just want music to be a refuge form the bombardment of divisive politics and social issues. I fully support artists speaking out if they feel a need to, but I actively avoid listening to any of it when I can.

I am actually the opposite end politically from everyone else in my band. We get along OK and I simply ignore the random comments they make. We are a feel good drink and dance band, so if any of them ever spoke out during a show, I'd be done with the whole thing.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

If they actively undermine the health and wellbeing of me or my loved ones, I stop consuming their art.

If it's more of a Michael Jackson/Bill Cosby situation, I vomit, then avoid their content if possible. Sure. I'll jam to ABC still, and I might say "hey hey hey" like Fat Albert, but that's about it.