Separating the pros from the amateurs; a list

[hdracer]

The difference between a professional and an amateur is refusing to play Wagon Wheel.

Yeah, Ben Gould is just a rank amateur....

 

[xUptheIronsx]

for me a "pro" has nothing to do with playing. It has to do with attitude, communication, and people skills.

I know many great players who are NOT pros. Guys who know where to play and where not to, who have deep pockets and groove galore....who are never on time to rehearsal or gigs, or are quick to get the band kicked out of a bar with a stupid comment or action at a show, or who lose gear, steal money etc......

amd i know many average or younger players who are on time, know the music, are freindly, observant, lens a hand when loading...

the playing part can be fixed...most of the time the attitude can not

give me a pro attitude anytime!

 

[dalkowski]

A recent experience had me thinking about how a bassist who plays in an "amateurish" fashion is different than a bassist who plays like a professional.

OP: Not knowing your "recent experience," we're really reading your post out of context. Consequently, it's hard not to read it as chest-thumping and elitist.

I too equate "professional" and "amateur" first and foremost with monetary compensation—their other definitions are more subjective (and "amateur" in your post is downright pejorative). Your list definitely describes the antithesis of a bassist who plays capably, appropriately and musically in an ensemble setting. So is your beef with players who are Unmusical? Inexperienced? Unskilled? Unready for prime time?

 

[mambo4]

Amateur players will likely

• Play more notes than necessary
• Not take into account what the singer or the rest of the band might be doing
• Change register for no reason
• not put what is best for the song ahead of everything else
• fail to articulate notes in order to enhance the time feel
• execute rhythmically inaccurate lines and fail to lock in with the other players

I don't see any elitism in that list at all.
It strikes me as a good list of things to consider while you play.
Tasteful playing requires listening and supporting the music,
These are some of the ways that beginners might fail to do so.

Many here seem to bristle at the suggestion that they should tastefully constrain their playing in some way.
Then again, you do have to spend a good deal of time trying out ideas that may violate the above list
before your inner ear learns what might or might not work in a given situation.

Perhaps people would be less defensive if the approach were inverted:

"Pro" players will:

• not over play
• listen to the singer / the rest of the band
• change registers where appropriate
• put what is best for the song ahead of everything else
• articulate notes in order to enhance the time feel
• execute rhythmically accurate lines and to lock in with the other players

 

[jd-ns]

A professional bass player is simply someone whose primary source of income is playing bass.

"Professional" and "Amateur" designations have nothing to do with skill/proficiency.

 

[Liam Wald]

In my mind it has nothing to do with how well or how poorly someone plays.
There are many players who might be thought of as being quite bad who make a living playing music. Like it or not, they are pro.
Conversely, there are many players who are absolutely fantastic who only play for fun. They are not pro.
A pro makes a living playing music and an amateur does not.

 

[Dogghouse]

Playing and singing Wagon Wheel gets me some nice big tips on occassion. LOL

 

[buldog5151bass]

It's this generation's Mustang Sally.

 

[Joebone]

A professional bass player is simply someone whose primary source of income is playing bass.

"Professional" and "Amateur" designations have nothing to do with skill/proficiency.

Dick Francis is a British mystery-writer who was a professional jockey, and has written some interesting contemplations upon the question of amateur vs. professional status in the context of steeplechase. It's been decades, but IIRC, it came down to attitude and absolute drive to be first across that finish line.

Commitment.

So I'd take the OP's list as indicating what it takes to be a "responsible" bassist at ANY level, but say that the pros are the folks whose drive and commitment have taken them to refined technical and musical levels - which to my mind means deep control over time, touch, dynamics, attack/release, tone and being appropriate for the music at hand…being fast and flashy can be part of that as well.

Looking at how one has organized one's life to maximize growth in these regards is also indicative….meaning that folks who play for a living are inherently committed, although I also can contemplate a lifestyle where some sort of day gig provides stability that facilitates this growth…or maybe someone is just really good at two things…check out Danny Zeitlin, who is an amazing jazz pianist/composer, but also a Med. School professor in psychiatry.

 

[Roland GR 88]

Hmmmm.........next time I run into Les Claypool or Jack Bruce I'll remember to mention the OPs points.

 

[Liam Wald]

It's this generation's Mustang Sally.

Yeah, Mustang Sally. Seems like the only people who are sick of it are the musicians who are asked to play it.
If you go to You Tube and pull up the original Wilson Picket version and give it a listen my guess is that you will have to admit that it is pretty Frickin' cool.
I would bet that if that version had never happened back then and was released as a new song today it would be a huge monster hit.

 

[dalkowski]

It strikes me as a good list of things to consider while you play.
Tasteful playing requires listening and supporting the music,
These are some of the ways that beginners might fail to do so.

Many here seem to bristle at the suggestion that they should tastefully constrain their playing in some way.
Then again, you do have to spend a good deal of time trying out ideas that may violate the above list
before your inner ear learns what might or might not work in a given situation.

I don't disagree with a word. Methinks the bristling comes largely from (what I percieve as) the OP's pejorative use of "amateur." I'm not God's gift to the instrument by any stretch, but I think I'm a pretty tasteful player who keeps to what's situationally appropriate. And the lions share of my experience has been in amateur settings.

Again, I'm very interested to know the context of the OP.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The difference between a professional and an amateur is refusing to play Wagon Wheel.

Do you think the amateurs play it?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

HEY I CAN SEE MY HOUSE FROM HERE

Matt, it's kind of whining and you're (in my opinion) missing several large points. You're looking at someone's playing (and it sounds like it's someone pretty specific that set you off, did they get a gig you wanted to be on?) and finding deficiencies. Well guess what? If I listened to your playing I bet I would find ways in which you didn't live up to my standards. And guess what else? If Joe Martin (or John Hebert or Neal Miner or Sean Smith or Dezron Douglas or any of the literally hundreds of players who make up MY neighborhood) listened to MY playing, they'd find ways in which I didn't live up to their standards. NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE WAY YOU OR I OR ANYBODY ELSE SOUNDS. All we can sound like is what we sound like. And the only thing that changes that is the time we spend in the shed, working ON OURSELVES to become better musicians. All to say, all any of us at any level can strive to do is to endeavor to hear at a deeper level and work on getting what we hear out into the air. The more work you put into removing whatever obstacles the instrument puts in your way, the easier that is.

Sure, it's human nature to assess where you are by comparing that to where other people are. But that doesn't mean that it's a good path to follow. Ultimately, the only true measure is that of yourself and your desire and your willingness to pursue that desire. You want to make a useful list, make one of your own weaknesses and the steps you're going to take to overcome them.

And then keep it to yourself.

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Sounds like this is more about playing style than anything else, or perhaps the other stuff is implied.

I'd say all of the things you listed are things that any basic musician should do, regardless of the instrument they play. If you're getting in the way of others sonic space, keeping poor timing, playing sloppily-placed extra notes, and just being a toolbag in general I'd say they were just plain crappy. However there are some people who could be considered busier than necessary who really made it work, I'd cite Jamerson as one of them. He could have easily done roots and fifths to groove the song into oblivion, but his unique style and busyness made him stand out significantly. It's all about execution IME.

 

[matthewbrown]

It's this generation's Mustang Sally.

I thought that was "Wonderwall"!

 

[buldog5151bass]

Yeah, Mustang Sally. Seems like the only people who are sick of it are the musicians who are asked to play it.
If you go to You Tube and pull up the original Wilson Picket version and give it a listen my guess is that you will have to admit that it is pretty Frickin' cool.
I would bet that if that version had never happened back then and was released as a new song today it would be a huge monster hit.

We played it Saturday, but we have an alto player, plus a trumpet player from the audience who was sitting in, so it was more fun to play than usual.

 

[matthewbrown]

In my mind it has nothing to do with how well or how poorly someone plays.
There are many players who might be thought of as being quite bad who make a living playing music. Like it or not, they are pro.
Conversely, there are many players who are absolutely fantastic who only play for fun. They are not pro.
A pro makes a living playing music and an amateur does not.

That's quite true, but not really what I was getting at. You don't read interviews with pop star bassists in magazines to find out about how well they play so that you might improve your playing. If that's the only distinction, then there are a good many bassists playing in pubs and clubs who are only a bit of fairy dust and a good haircut away from stardom, I suppose.

 

[matthewbrown]

HEY I CAN SEE MY HOUSE FROM HERE

Matt, it's kind of whining and you're (in my opinion) missing several large points. You're looking at someone's playing (and it sounds like it's someone pretty specific that set you off, did they get a gig you wanted to be on?) and finding deficiencies. Well guess what? If I listened to your playing I bet I would find ways in which you didn't live up to my standards. And guess what else? If Joe Martin (or John Hebert or Neal Miner or Sean Smith or Dezron Douglas or any of the literally hundreds of players who make up MY neighborhood) listened to MY playing, they'd find ways in which I didn't live up to their standards. NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE WAY YOU OR I OR ANYBODY ELSE SOUNDS. All we can sound like is what we sound like. And the only thing that changes that is the time we spend in the shed, working ON OURSELVES to become better musicians. All to say, all any of us at any level can strive to do is to endeavor to hear at a deeper level and work on getting what we hear out into the air. The more work you put into removing whatever obstacles the instrument puts in your way, the easier that is.

Sure, it's human nature to assess where you are by comparing that to where other people are. But that doesn't mean that it's a good path to follow. Ultimately, the only true measure is that of yourself and your desire and your willingness to pursue that desire. You want to make a useful list, make one of your own weaknesses and the steps you're going to take to overcome them.

And then keep it to yourself.

Points taken. I was seeing a lot of myself in the performance when I recognized some of the problems I raised -- I've been one to do all those things at time or another. The list I started was intended as a starting point of a discussion about setting standards for oneself as a professional, or one who aspires to professionalism. There are things that we do as musicians that are easy to overlook, precisely because they're not showy, unless you are looking for them. Other aspects of professionalism include non-playing behavior -- being a team player, showing up on time, etc.

I think we must walk a fine line between honest criticism of what's not desirable, especially in ourselves, and being so uncritical that even aspects of one's performance that are clearly flawed get overlooked.

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

yeah, pro / am distinction is about the big bucks.

as far as being a pro-player, that is just about good taste, which is subjective and varies within each genre.

I know cats who have amazing chops, but I would never call them pro.

I've met some folks who have only been playing bass maybe a year or two, and have been able to write a catchy tune and sell some records, and I think they are pro.

It's about the music, if it is good and people like it and you are enjoying it without losing your ass, then you are pro.

amateur is just a word some people use to describe others they have an opinion about.