• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Several paths to PA. Need advice

xring

xring

Sep 16, 2003
1,051
75
Ohio
Visit site
#1
I play out 2-3 times per month. I'm just ok with the house sound. It seems to lack clear mids, and thck lows. I do like a zingy cut on certain tunes. PA is newer 15" powered EV tops. Unfortunately no subs. I often run the DI from my GK MB500 to the board post eq, or my Art Pro Channel DI to the board, and on this one, I believe it's only post eq as there's no pre eq switch. I have run the GK pre eq, but the house tone wasn't really any better We run sound from the stage. Our Mackie board only has 3 EQ setting, with mids being para.. So my question is this. I have an MXR M80 DI box. Is the DI on it better than the other ones I am using, and will it sound better in the mix, assuming I set it as flat as possible, or will a quality DI, possibly with the Jenson transformer give a better house mix? I do run a Darkglass B3k and compression in my loop. I have good cabs and an embarrasing amount of watts available if I use my rack unit with my Crest Pro Lite 3.0. So, better DI? Subs needed? Push more tone from the stage?
 
#3

Actually, the “lack of clear” mids is probably directly related to the “thick lows.” I expect the problem is that every instrument and vocal on stage has a nice, warm low end when heard independently?

That sounds great in our bedrooms, but you have to mix – rather EQ – a band as an entity, not individuals. Typically this means limiting the low end of everything on the stage, except the drums and bass. If you have all channels on your console with the low freq knob flat, or boosted, and perhaps with no HP filters engaged, then that’s the problem. No additional gear you get for your rig is going to help.

For evidence, give a close listen to a recording that you feel has a clean mix with great sounding bass. Listen to guitars, keys, etc. when they happened to be featured alone, like at the intro of a song. And notice the distinct lack of low end. In fact, they’ll probably sound rather “thin” when “out there” all by themselves.

Basically, that’s what it takes to get a clean live mix, too: Limit the lows to everything except the bass and drums.

Fair warning, you’ll probably get some resistance from your bandmates. Everyone likes “bedroom” tone; few get the concept that in order for the band as a whole to sound good, no one individual gets to have their “bedroom” tone.

Subs might very well help, especially if it’s set up to where only signals from the bass and drums are sent to it.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt


Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Basses
Pedulla Club #45


 
  • Like
Reactions: Downunderwonder and s0c9
#4
xring said:
I'm just ok with the house sound.
Click to expand...

xring said:
Unfortunately no subs.
Click to expand...
effect, meet cause.

putting bass or kick drum into a "no sub" PA will never be more than "getting by", and even then only at low volume; considerations of tone are right out.

you could make up the difference with your stage volume, but that would mostly mean the kick drum gets buried and nobody can hear their monitors anymore.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoCal80s, tbirdsp and Downunderwonder
#5
xring said:
I play out 2-3 times per month. I'm just ok with the house sound. It seems to lack clear mids, and thck lows. I do like a zingy cut on certain tunes.

PA is newer 15" powered EV tops. Unfortunately no subs. I often run the DI from my GK MB500 to the board post eq, or my Art Pro Channel DI to the board, and on this one, I believe it's only post eq as there's no pre eq switch.

I have run the GK pre eq, but the house tone wasn't really any better We run sound from the stage. Our Mackie board only has 3 EQ setting, with mids being para.

So my question is this. I have an MXR M80 DI box. Is the DI on it better than the other ones I am using, and will it sound better in the mix, assuming I set it as flat as possible, or will a quality DI, possibly with the Jenson transformer give a better house mix?

I do run a Darkglass B3k and compression in my loop. I have good cabs and an embarrasing amount of watts available if I use my rack unit with my Crest Pro Lite 3.0. So, better DI? Subs needed? Push more tone from the stage?
Click to expand...
lemme digest that.
 
#6
So, what all gets mic'd and DI'd into the PA? How many in the audience?

Generally you aren't going to get rock god sound from a pair of 15" oversize monitors on sticks. Completely the wrong place for broadcasting lows.

What's going on with the stage? Blasting away on stage is preferable to blasting away on stage AND pumping subs turning to mud out front.
 
#7
Downunderwonder said:
So, what all gets mic'd and DI'd into the PA? How many in the audience?

Generally you aren't going to get rock god sound from a pair of 15" oversize monitors on sticks. Completely the wrong place for broadcasting lows.

What's going on with the stage? Blasting away on stage is preferable to blasting away on stage AND pumping subs turning to mud out front.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the PA is probably too small, although it does stay clean. 5 vocals, bass and keys are DI. 3 mics max on drums I believe. Sometimes 2. 3 12" EV powered monitors. I usually end up with a healthy stage volume, as I don't like bass in the monitors at all. Guitar stage volume a little less than bass, due to being in monitors, and higher in PA.
 
#10
Jules Meuffels said:
If your amp-cabinet does sound low enough, you need a sub in PA.
If your cab is also without lows, ...change the blend on your Darkglass? (overdrives eat lows)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies. I run an Aggie GS212 for most gigs, or the Fender 610 Pro. Can add another Aggie 410 as needed. Plenty of lows, but I like alot of definition and that can sometimes lead to a scooped tone...not good. The B3K actually is good at retaining lows depending on how it's set. I think a sub or 2 is in order after considering the replies. Tnx.
 
#12
xring said:
Thanks for the replies. I run an Aggie GS212 for most gigs, or the Fender 610 Pro. Can add another Aggie 410 as needed. Plenty of lows, but I like alot of definition and that can sometimes lead to a scooped tone...not good. The B3K actually is good at retaining lows depending on how it's set. I think a sub or 2 is in order after considering the replies. Tnx.
Click to expand...

Yes, bar gigs. Some bigger than others. You know how that goes. Problem is, I can carry most any venue, but stage volume would be LOUD. Sometimes my cab is pointing a my Keys legs. Don't want to do that to him!
 
#13
Your running the same PA I am. Granted, we are a three piece so it's easier to mix, but we have " enough" bottom for the kick and bass to be mixed in most places.
I typically just carry the room and stay out of the PA.

This being said, we are definitely looking to add at least one sub to solve a percieved lack of punch out front, which I believe is your concern as well. My last band ran an amp based PA and when we added subs....it sounded amazing. Even small gigs benifit from that little bit of thump that the sub gives, even at the lowest volume. We're looking to get the elx118p to match our tops.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoCal80s
#14
Since you're already EV-invested, for a live band in a Bar, here's the smallest/least expensive sub I could recommend:

Invalid Link Removed


One will likely do just fine. Putting two out (one on either side of the stage) will likely just introduce "power-alley" problems or worse, unless you have some advanced time-alignment gear and skill.

As far as "cleaning things up", Google-search and read Mike Shipley's thoughts on "filling sonic holes". It's basically about how he approached channel EQ-ing to make music sound both fat and clean by keeping sound-sources from competing for the same "sonic space".
 
  • Like
Reactions: SoCal80s
#17
kikstand454 said:
^^^^^^

???


This is the matching sub for the EV zlx series.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


Do you feel this sub isn't enough for the small/mid sized gigs?
Click to expand...

Yes I feel It's not enough. I have a Electro-Voice EKX18SP, which is in-between the ETX and ELX, and use it in my man-cave for recording playback.

I wish I had gotten the ETX. The EKX just runs out of headroom too soon. i.e., it's kinda easy to drive into protect mode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kikstand454
#18
^^^^^ interesting.

I can't imagine needing more than even one elx for the type of gigs the OP mentioned. Maybe I'm overestimating it's output?

My last band ran analog subs - which were homemade out of car speakers....lol....and one sub at 600w carried most small/medium rooms just fine. And I KNOW ( hope?) That the elx speakers are more effecient than the car speakers we used ( i dont remember which ones....kicker maybe?)



Hmmm.....as we are looking at an ELX purchase soon, I may have to look into your info. Thanks.
 
#20
I do a lot of my gigs with bass and kick in the tops using a pair of QSC K10's. I do run a quiet Mark Bass 15" student combo on stage and the volume is fine and the bass and kick sound good. For me the secret was the bass sound. I use a Zoom B3 floor pedal and was previously using a sans amp module and an svt module. I thought I had plenty of mids in it but no. So I switched to a Hartke 3500 module and wow. Bass is there and nice and middy. I know it is good as solo'd in the amp it is kind of yucky. I sold off my QSC KW18 sub as it was to heavy and I never used it. I picked up one of the EV 12" subs below. Now it didn't thump your chest but it was a great addition. I liked it so much I bought a second. Some rooms I use none, others 1 and a few two. Nice thing is I can carry them each on one arm and load them out in one trip.


Invalid Link Removed
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back