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Sharps and flats? Same thing?
- Thread starter Demon
- Start date
I think we chased of Demon, the thread originator... Hey, Demon! Did any of this answer your question or are you more confused?
i would bet he's more confused,
he probably went to ask some guitarists. he knew they wouldn't answer with so much garbledy-gook.
demon: are C# and Db the same thing?
anonomous guitarist 1: who cares about notes, i use tabs, that makes me beter than you
anonomous guitartist 2: no im better
anonomous guitarist 3: no im beter
(large guitarist battle involving to many power chords destroys earth)
thus proving you should never ask a guitarist anything "confusing"
he probably went to ask some guitarists. he knew they wouldn't answer with so much garbledy-gook.
demon: are C# and Db the same thing?
anonomous guitarist 1: who cares about notes, i use tabs, that makes me beter than you
anonomous guitartist 2: no im better
anonomous guitarist 3: no im beter
(large guitarist battle involving to many power chords destroys earth)
thus proving you should never ask a guitarist anything "confusing"
Hi. I've been waiting in the wings for a bit but thought I'd make myself known.
Hi everybody!!
On a fretted instrument a Db is the same as a C#. the key of the song determines which one is used to give you the same note.
On a fretless instrument, the two notes are different but you have to have a good ear to tell.
I'm not an expert but have played (bluffed) my way through a variety of big bands, jazz bands and orchestras (double bass obviously) and this is the only reason i know this.
Hi everybody!!
On a fretted instrument a Db is the same as a C#. the key of the song determines which one is used to give you the same note.
On a fretless instrument, the two notes are different but you have to have a good ear to tell.
I'm not an expert but have played (bluffed) my way through a variety of big bands, jazz bands and orchestras (double bass obviously) and this is the only reason i know this.
tZer said:
tZer - that's a great explanation. Picking up on the English language analogy, we have a lot of words that are spelled and pronounced the same but have different meanings given a context.
If someone were to say just the word "pool", you wouldn't be sure of what their meaning was. Once in context:
"I'm going to swim at the pool" or,
"I'm going to shoot some pool later"
you know exactly what the word means. "pool" as an isolated word in either statement is the same but once in context, it's different.
Yes, although I disagree that they're different on a fretless instrument. You can *at your option* choose to make them different, but it's probably a pointless exercise. If your playing with fretted instruments or keyboards they won't be doing it, and you'll just be out of tune. If you're playing with an ensemble of flexibly pitched instruments, like an orchestra, you'll want to tune the note so it sounds best. No telling where that might be. If you're playing solo, you can choose either approach. Neither is more correct.Delberthot said:
Demon said:
In most tunings they aren't. Tempered tuning tries to distribute dissonances to each note so that they are within 5 cents of what they should be (this is close enough that generally you don't hear a dissonance in thirds and other consonant intervals, or you may hear just a bit of color) ...with tempered tuning C# and Db are the same ... since we all play tempered scales, the only reason you would chose one or the other is key signature.
IanStephenson said:
In using software that transcribes MIDI files to sheet music "by the rules", I realized how a lot of profesionaly notated sheet breaks this rule. The most common is a note that is a natural followed by a semi-tone higher. The software often uses double sharps and double flats whereas puklished sheet music tends to avoid "double accidentals"...probabably for the sake of simplicity.
Herman said:
And let's not forget the environmentally-friendly, "Car pool". That would be a tough one to dive into, huh?
--tz
almost everyone who posted here is mis-informed.
C# is a C raised one half step
Db is a D lowered one half step.
so because there is a whole step between C and D, then to the ear, the notes will be the same right?
right. on an instrument that has only certain notes and does not contain the notes between notes.(guitar, bass, piano, harp)
BUT! BUT! BUT!
WRONG!! if the instrument is of the likes of a violin, fretless bass or guitar, or the human voice. if the user of these instruments is classically trained and is very good, then when they play a C# and a Db, the two notes will sound close, but will NOT sound the same.
they are not the same note, they just (usually) sound the same.
C# is a C raised one half step
Db is a D lowered one half step.
so because there is a whole step between C and D, then to the ear, the notes will be the same right?
right. on an instrument that has only certain notes and does not contain the notes between notes.(guitar, bass, piano, harp)
BUT! BUT! BUT!
WRONG!! if the instrument is of the likes of a violin, fretless bass or guitar, or the human voice. if the user of these instruments is classically trained and is very good, then when they play a C# and a Db, the two notes will sound close, but will NOT sound the same.
they are not the same note, they just (usually) sound the same.
lemur821 said:
that is kind of off bass.(nice pun huh). if your playing with a group and your playing the two notes differently on a fretless, it wont sound out of tune because the two notes are THAT close to eachother, and just because it MIGHT sound out of tune, it doesnt mean that the notes are different.
if by chance you choose not to play the two notes differently then you are conciously making a decision that is wrong, and theres not sense doing that.
what if i said, E, Eb, E#, who cares...ill just play anything with an E in the name as open on the e string, it will sound good enough.
that wont cut it
If you're playing with a piano and you both play an E flat, the piano's E flat will be exactly 50 cents below an E. If you decide it's somewhere else, you're going to sound a little out of tune (although probably not too much).WHOlovesBASS? said:
The bottom line is that it's your responsibility as a flexibly pitched instrument in an ensemble to play in tune with everyone else. That means you put notes in the same place the rest of your section puts them, and that all the sections put their notes in the right place in the chord. Usually that means that an ensemble will tend a little closer to just intonation than equal temperament without a piano or something to keep everyone "honest". With a piano, it's probably better to take its harmonic lead.
Naturally it would be wrong to "just play anything with an E in the name as open on the E string", as in your exaggeration. However, it would not be wrong to sharpen or flatten a note slightly to be in tune with everyone else. That's playing in tune, not playing different notes on a whim.
If you're playing solo then each note can be whatever you like, and there is no "wrong way". If you change the notes, you'll be playing a different piece of music, but you won't be doing it wrong. Unless you do it on accident, of course.
lemur821 said:
this is who loves bass, my account got deleted...idk how...
i agree with you when you say that it wont be wrong if u change the pitch to stay in tune with a band...but if your playing a solo peice, and the note on the paper says Db and you play a C#, then technically it is wrong
iplaybassguitar said:
In non-western music I think I can see where degress off of the pitch could be something other then 1/2 steps - but in western music, as I am finding sharps and flats defined, they are both 50 cents or one-half step from the pitch they are sharping or flatting, either above or below... and 1/2 and 50% IS 1/2 and 50% - not, "If I am 'flating' a pitch, 50% is actually 49% or if I am 'sharping' a pitch 50% is actually 55%..."
So I really don't see how, regardless of whether your instrument has frets or not, the definition of a 'half-step' or 'semi-tone' changes the value of 50% based on it being 'sharp' or 'flat'.
While it is true that you CAN play steps other the halves on non-fretted, non-incremental, or non-keyed instruments (And I know that you can even find non-half-step tone on fretted and keyed instruments too...) - I don't understand how that makes you belive a half step down from D (Db) is any different from a half step up from C (C#) - in western music. They are both 1/2 way between C and D - and that is ONE pitch.
So - if you are playing a solo piece and that piece calls for a C# and you play the pitch that is 50% between C and D, you are playing C#. If you are playing a solo piece and that piece calles for a Db and you play the pitch that is 50% between D and C, you are playing Db. Are you telling me those pitches are not the same to the ear or in frequency?
Wouldn't that logic say that a chormatic scale would then contain 24 tones as opposed to 12?
The NEW and IMPROVED Chromatic Scale! Ab, A, A#, Bb, B, B#, Cb, C, C#, Db, D, D#, Eb, E, E#, Fb, F, F#, Gb, G, G#,Ab, A, A#
Whoa... heavy...
iplaybassguitar said:
You seem to have a lot of faith that just intonation is "correct" and equal temprament is "wrong'. They're both just different ways of bodging the notes so that the system works. They both have strengths and weaknesses, but you can't call equal temprament "wrong" without accepting that just intonation is equally "wrong".
Starting from first principles of harmonics - we have the root, the 1st harmonic (octave) and 2nd harmonic (ocatave+perfect 5th).
This defines the two most important intervals. Starting at C (as a good starting point), the perfect 5th of C defines G, which in turn defines D and so on... twelve steps later and you're REALLY CLOSE to C again.
Trouble is it ISN'T C, just real close. Equal temprament says spread the error evenly, so it works out. Just intonation laves the errors in, so you need to know where your starting point is (cause if you start from D, then the errors will be in different places). In this case it's not really enough to say that C# is different from Db, as you would also need to know that C# (as the major third of A) is a different note to C# (as the perfect fifth of F#).
However C# (as the perfect fifth of F#) would sound the same as Db (as the perfect fifth of Gb) if you define Gb and F# to be the same. Of course you could argue that they're not, but I'd claim that if the piece is in the key of F# then they WOULD be the same, as you're using that single note as your reference.
The temprement argument is a whole can of worms, and to open it to argue that C# isn't Db is to really miss the point of both the question,a AND temperaments.
The important to realise is that enharmonic changes are a gramatic construct which infer meaning in the music, but (generally) sound the same - just as "to", "too" and "two" all SOUND the same but are different words. We still write them differently because they MEAN something different.
Ultimately what matters is that it sounds good.
technically, no they are not because you can't have two of the same letter in a scale and a standard Diatonic scale consists of A,B,C,D,E,F,G, so say you have a G major scale whcih consists of 1 sharp and that sharp is F so the scale is G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G(OCTAVE) but if a scale was a flat it would be
G,A,B,C,D,E,Gb,G(octave) and you can't have two of the same letter in a scale
So with theory they are not the same thing but without the theory they are the same note because as someone stated they are enharmonically equivalent and yes a piano player wouldn't now if it was c# or Db so most likely they'd ask for the key and refer to the circle of fifths so say the scale was G# major the piano player would say it was a flat but if the scale was B major it would be a sharp. But again if you listen say play a 4th fret on your A string they do sound the same without theory but they are still not the same
G,A,B,C,D,E,Gb,G(octave) and you can't have two of the same letter in a scale
So with theory they are not the same thing but without the theory they are the same note because as someone stated they are enharmonically equivalent and yes a piano player wouldn't now if it was c# or Db so most likely they'd ask for the key and refer to the circle of fifths so say the scale was G# major the piano player would say it was a flat but if the scale was B major it would be a sharp. But again if you listen say play a 4th fret on your A string they do sound the same without theory but they are still not the same
