Sharps and flats? Same thing?

[tZer]

How many of you can tell the difference between C# and Db by ear?

The same number of people who, if hearing a person saying the words, "two", "too", or "to" without any context, can hear the "w".

 

[iplaybassguitar]

You seem to have a lot of faith that just intonation is "correct" and equal temprament is "wrong'. They're both just different ways of bodging the notes so that the system works. They both have strengths and weaknesses, but you can't call equal temprament "wrong" without accepting that just intonation is equally "wrong".

Starting from first principles of harmonics - we have the root, the 1st harmonic (octave) and 2nd harmonic (ocatave+perfect 5th).

This defines the two most important intervals. Starting at C (as a good starting point), the perfect 5th of C defines G, which in turn defines D and so on... twelve steps later and you're REALLY CLOSE to C again.

Trouble is it ISN'T C, just real close. Equal temprament says spread the error evenly, so it works out. Just intonation laves the errors in, so you need to know where your starting point is (cause if you start from D, then the errors will be in different places). In this case it's not really enough to say that C# is different from Db, as you would also need to know that C# (as the major third of A) is a different note to C# (as the perfect fifth of F#).

However C# (as the perfect fifth of F#) would sound the same as Db (as the perfect fifth of Gb) if you define Gb and F# to be the same. Of course you could argue that they're not, but I'd claim that if the piece is in the key of F# then they WOULD be the same, as you're using that single note as your reference.

The temprement argument is a whole can of worms, and to open it to argue that C# isn't Db is to really miss the point of both the question,a AND temperaments.

The important to realise is that enharmonic changes are a gramatic construct which infer meaning in the music, but (generally) sound the same - just as "to", "too" and "two" all SOUND the same but are different words. We still write them differently because they MEAN something different.

Ultimately what matters is that it sounds good.

i dont mean to say that if it sounds better then it is wrong because its not technically what is written...but in some cases, that is true...

if you were to sit down with the intention of playing a written peice of music, not as interpreted, but as written, and you played a C# where it said Db, then TECHNICALLY it would be wrong...thats the only point im trying to prove.

personally, i would play whichever note sounded better, but im just making the point that there is a difference in the notes and that they cannot be refferred to as being the same

 

[tZer]

...and you played a C# where it said Db, then TECHNICALLY it would be wrong...thats the only point im trying to prove.

Could you explain exactly how you would accomplish such a feat?

Would you play the 4th fret on the A-string as opposed to the 9th fret on the E-string? No, wait... both are C# or Db...Hmmm... Maybe you could the black key between the C and D, but with the clear thought in your mind that you are playing C# when you know it should be Db...

I am not really clear on how the sound of note that you play changes based on what you intend to play vs. what is written.

and I could not resist being a bit snarky... sorry 'bout that.

 

[westland]

almost everyone who posted here is mis-informed.

Except for me, right? ... I'm sure you were referring to me. It's a sad sad story, all those people being wrong.

 

[iplaybassguitar]

Could you explain exactly how you would accomplish such a feat?

Would you play the 4th fret on the A-string as opposed to the 9th fret on the E-string? No, wait... both are C# or Db...Hmmm... Maybe you could the black key between the C and D, but with the clear thought in your mind that you are playing C# when you know it should be Db...

I am not really clear on how the sound of note that you play changes based on what you intend to play vs. what is written.

and I could not resist being a bit snarky... sorry 'bout that.

nice job being snarky, too bad it doesnt have the same effect when your not proving a point

it is literally impossible to play a C#and Db different on a fretted instrument like a fretted bass, unless you wanna bend to it, but thats a whole lot more work than its worth

i was referring to any instrument such as a trombone, a voice, or a violin,, or even a fretless bass guitar, where c# and Db and two different notes

 

[tZer]

nice job being snarky, too bad it doesnt have the same effect when your not proving a point

it is literally impossible to play a C#and Db different on a fretted instrument like a fretted bass, unless you wanna bend to it, but thats a whole lot more work than its worth

i was referring to any instrument such as a trombone, a voice, or a violin,, or even a fretless bass guitar, where c# and Db and two different notes

Apologies in advance if any snarkiness creeps in, however, I still am not clear on why you intend to play two different tones when you see either C# or Db on ANY instrument... Fretted or not.

I have played piano, violin, double bass and trombone. I have been reading music for more years then I care to remember. When I was marching with the trombone and I saw a C#, I slid my slide to 5th position and properly articulated the note. Same holds true when I would see a Db indicated; 5th position - NOT 5th + a little more or less. Db or C# made no difference as to where the correct slide position was or the way my embouchure was configured to properly articulate what is the exact same pitch. (See Fig. 1 below)

On violin, when C# was indicated the note was generated as follows; in first position, I layed my third finger at the high 3 position on the G string because the note C is correctly played with your 3rd finger. To properly sharpen that pitch you extend your 3rd finger to the point half-way between 3 and 4 on the fingerboard. TO YOUR POINT, if I saw a Db, I would lay my fourth finger at the LOW 4 position on the G string for the same reasoning that is used for properly playing C#; because D on the G string is properly fingered with the 4th finger, so flattening that note implies you reduce your 4th finger position to half-way between position 4 and 3, which is in the same physical location on the fingerboard as the HIGH 3. Why? Because they are the same pitch, sonically. Now if I chose to slightly augment or diminish that position due to my interpretation that Db is slightly higher then C# or vice versa, I would be playing those notes out of tune. In ensamble play, choosing to play Db as a different pitch then you would choose to play C# would get the baton tossed at you for not being in tune with your section. (See Fig. 2 below)

Fig. 1 - Trombone Slide Position Chart

Fig 2 - Violin Finger Position Chart

You will notice on the violin fingering chart there is not a different physical location for HIGH 3 or LOW 4. Or in the case of the C# or Db being played on the A string, the correct position on the fingerboard is Full 2 position (when your in first position). Again, no a little less 2 or a little more 2, just plain 2.

Snark or no snark, frets or no frets, the pitches C# and Db are the same and are played the in the same physical location on bass, guitar, harp, piano, violin, slide trombone, valve trombone and any other western instrument you choose to play.

 

[.matthew e wengerd.]

tZ -

Let me start by saying that - In this context, I completely agree with you.

However, Twelve Equal Tone temperment is not the only type of tuning used today.

From Wikipedia:

Systems for the twelve-note chromatic scale

It is impossible to tune the twelve-note chromatic scale so that all intervals are "perfect"; many different methods with their own various compromises have thus been put forward. The main ones are:

* Just intonation, in which the ratios of the frequencies between all notes are based on relatively low whole numbers, such as 3:2, 5:4 or 7:4; or in which all pitches are based on the harmonic series (music), which are all whole number multiples of a single tone. Such a system may use two different ratios for what is the same interval in equal temperament depending on context; for instance, a major second may be either in the ratio 9:8 or 10:9. For this reason, just intonation may be less a suitable system for use on keyboard instruments or other instruments where the pitch of individual notes is not flexible. (On fretted instruments like guitars and lutes, multiple frets for one interval can be practical.)
* Pythagorean tuning, in which the ratios of the frequencies between all notes are all multiples of 3:2. The Pythagorean system was further developed by Safi ad-Din al-Urmawi, who divided the octave into seventeen parts (limmas and commas) and used in the Turkish and Persian tone systems.
* Meantone temperament, a system of tuning which averages out pairs of ratios used for the same interval (such as 9:8 and 10:9), thus making it possible to tune keyboard instruments. Next to the twelve-equal temperament, which some would not regard as a form of meantone, the best known form of this temperament is quarter comma meantone, which tunes major thirds justly in the ratio of 5:4 and divides them into two whole tones of equal size. To do this, eleven perfect fifths in each octave are flattened by a quarter of a syntonic comma, with the remaining fifth being left very sharp (such an unacceptably out-of-tune fifth is known as a wolf interval). However, the fifth may be flattened to a greater or lesser degree than this and the tuning system will retain the essential qualities of meantone temperament; examples include the 31-equal fifth and Lucy tuning.
* Both just intonation and meantone temperament can be regarded as forms of regular temperament.
* Well temperament, any one of a number of systems where the ratios between intervals are unequal, but approximate to ratios used in just intonation. Unlike meantone temperament, the amount of divergence from just ratios varies according to the exact notes being tuned, so that C-E will probably be tuned closer to a 5:4 ratio than, say, Db-F. Because of this, well temperaments have no wolf intervals. A well temperament system is usually named after whoever first came up with it.
* Equal temperament (a special case of well-temperament), in which adjacent notes of the scale are all separated by logarithmically equal distances (100 cents) - A harmonized C major scale in equal temperament (.ogg format, 96.9KB). This is the most common tuning system used in Western music, and is the standard system for tuning a piano. Since this scale divides an octave into twelve equal-ratio steps, the frequency ratio between adjacent notes is then the twelfth root of two, 21/12, or ~1.05946309...

While I cannote speak for the other posters, any argument I have for enharmonic equivalents not being true unisons is usually a result of well- or just-intonation.

 

[tZer]

Good post. And I see where the interval between C and E and Db and F are mathematically adjusted - can you offer clarity as to what the adjustment for C# to F would be and how it would be different from the Db to F example?

Or, for my benefit (being a Bass player with ADD and AD/HD, I tend to skim large bodies of text ) could you point out to me where that chunck of wiki explains how C# is not the same as Db?

What I seem to be getting from that info is that the INTERVALS between notes in scales have algorithms that define how they are constructed. I don't really see where it clarifies how a Db differs from a C#. Again, using western music as the model, I am still a little baffled. Much of what is discussed in the wiki references tuning a piano and the correct math that is used to compensate for inevitable variances as you progress up the keyboard. The last time I played one, C# and Db sounded very much the same.

Thanks!

 

[.matthew e wengerd.]

That's just it:

P4 from G#= C#, right?
P5 from F#= C#, right?

Now, under Pythagorean, Just, Meantone, et al, C# does not equal C#.

That's just dealing with Perfect intervals! imagine when we get into Thirds, Seconds, etc.

M3 from A=C#
P4 from Gb=Db

Again, non TET tunings say that C#, in this case, does not equal Db.

In these cases, the actual frequency at which the pitch is sounded is relative to the frequency of the tonic of the key in which one is playing.

 

[tZer]

ah... very interesting... very intersting indeed. I need to chew on that for a while.

Thanks for the info!
--tz