Double Bass Shen Willow - bracing question

[Scott Lynch]

I visited a small independent Shen dealer in the city where I’m currently visiting and played a Willow which had a sound I was pretty impressed with. The seller informed me that this particular bass did not have the “X brace” on the back like many of the other Willows have but instead has a more traditional horizontal flatback bracing.

Is this anything to be worried about? If you were considering purchasing a modern flatback bass, would this be a dealbreaker for you or not?

 

[LouisF]

No.

 

[Turnaround]

The reason that flatbacks have x-bracing is because it was found that traditional horizontal bracing was contributing to cracking of the back with seasonal climate changes. So I’d be suspicious of “more traditional” bracing.

 

[LouisF]

Except that, IMO, most flatbacks with traditional bracing hold up pretty well over time IF they are treated well and are kept in a humiidity-stable environment.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Except that, IMO, most flatbacks with traditional bracing hold up pretty well over time IF they are treated well and are kept in a humiidity-stable environment.

Which many aren’t.

 

[Scott Lynch]

Thanks everyone. I did some digging, and it seems that the traditional ladder bracing is regarded by many as an antiquated design that leaves a bass highly susceptible to cracks and other issues if it lives in a climate with significant fluctuations in temperature and humidity.

For my money I think I can do better. I’m passing on the bass mentioned in the OP.

It’s one thing for an old flatback to have the ladder bracing, but this was a new Shen. Why would they put ladder bracing in this instead of the X brace?

 

[Turnaround]

Why would they put ladder bracing in this instead of the X brace?

Probably for marketing reasons. If they are the only (or at least one of the few) that offers "traditional" bracing, that sets them apart. Then you play "traditional" as "they knew how to do it best in the old days".

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Matthew Tuckers Responsive Bracing system seems the way to go these days. Mike Arnopol
Is getting a bass from a European maker with that system installed.

 

[LouisF]

Comrades, I have no desire to be contrarian, really, but the OP was talking about a SHEN WILLOW, which at best is 20-25 years old (Double Bass - oldest Shen willow?), not some 100 year old banged up German shop bass or some "student" POC from China or Eastern Europe.

My answer - and maybe I should have been clearer - was in reference to the Shen, and my opinion is still "No -- he would have nothing to worry about with that bass."

 

[groooooove]

Comrades, I have no desire to be contrarian, really, but the OP was talking about a SHEN WILLOW, which at best is 20-25 years old (Double Bass - oldest Shen willow?), not some 100 year old banged up German shop bass or some "student" POC from China or Eastern Europe.

My answer - and maybe I should have been clearer - was in reference to the Shen, and my opinion is still "No -- he would have nothing to worry about with that bass."

well said!

shen has done all sorts of designs over the years.
I had a very old (supposedly the first batch in the USA, late 90's) gemunder from shen with X bracing. It did come loose and rattle actually - but that was after being shipped from the south to new york, and who knows how the previous owner (a professional player) took care of it..

anything shen does will be fine.

on the topic of bracing, i agree that generally X or tucker bracing is "better," but the people making and installing the braces likely know more about the pros and cons than I do.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I do a lot of repair on school basses and see two dozen or so Willows, some close to twenty years old. Some of the earlier ones have open seams at the lower bout near the ends of the bracing and open up well over an inch. It looks to me like the bracing is pushing the seam open. I seldom see this on newer basses. Honestly, it’s rare to do repairs to newer Shen basses and I believe they have learned a few things and made improvements.
Regarding lateral flatback bracing on older instruments I know that any old European bass will either have cracks or loose bracing. Makers of fine furniture know that when constructing a table you don’t glue the framework to the top. You use hardware that will allow the top to expand and contract. Basses exposed to temperature and humidity changes WILL have issues after several decades.
That said, when restoring old basses I tend to redo the old bracing system. It worked for 70 or more years and it’s one less variable in tone to deal with. Also, X bracing or diagonal bracing (which I have done) will usually run over cracks making future repairs more difficult. The old way of doing things is just that. New flatbacks deserve better.

 

[james condino]

If the dealer would not have pointed out that detail in the construction from post #1, would you have purchased the bass?

 

[Scott Lynch]

If the dealer would not have pointed out that detail in the construction from post #1, would you have purchased the bass?

I was on the fence about it, though I had a mild hunch that it might have been a diamond in the rough.

It really sounded good, but given that the workmanship on the bridge fitting was poor and that it had a pretty significant scratch on the back that was through the finish, I thought the seller’s price was still a little high. I was willing to take the bass to someone local to have them redo the bridge and touch up the finish if the seller worked with me on the price. Once he mentioned the bracing and the fact that he already had to “blow some glue” (his words) into one of the braces since it wasn’t in full contact with the backplate, however, I knew it was time to consult the TBDB brain trust.

The temperature and humidity fluctuates quite a bit here in Delaware, so I’d prefer something that’s constructed in a way that will give me less problems over time. Given the consistency of Shens - I’ve certainly played more good sounding ones than not-so-good sounding ones - I’m optimistic that I’ll find another Willow that has what I’m looking for.

 

[LouisF]

Shen SB200 Upright Bass For Sale

Shen SB200 Upright Bass, Very Affordable and Well Made, With Our Special String Emporium Set Up Quality and Expertise.

www.stringemporium.com

Shen SB200 Gamba Willow - Flatback | Bassviolinshop

-- TEMPORARILY UNAVAILABLE --CONTACT US TO PLACE AN ORDER! Fully carved 3/4 double bass, with spruce top, willow ribs and willow flatback, rich oil finish, ebony fingerboard, and ebony tailpiece. INCLUDED BVS UPGRADES BVS set-up Despiau bridge with BVS custom adjusters German 10mm endpin...

www.bassviolinshop.com

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Shen Willow, 3/4 (China) | Cincinnati Bass Cellar

basscellar.com

Shen SB200 Willow Flatback Bass | J.R. Judd Violins

 

[Paul New]

Wow, that is a good price for a new 7/8ths!

The price on everything is up - except Shen basses.

If there’s a down-side to the x bracing in their flatbacks, it’s that people who are already skeptical of anything built in china will feel validated when they see that. For me, that is not a problem.

My 20 year old Willow x-braced flatback has been a workhorse, no issues.

 

[jmpiwonka]

Wow, that is a good price for a new 7/8ths!

The price on everything is up - except Shen basses.

If there’s a down-side to the x bracing in their flatbacks, it’s that people who are already skeptical of anything built in china will feel validated when they see that. For me, that is not a problem.

My 20 year old Willow x-braced flatback has been a workhorse, no issues.

I checked the shen website and I feel the prices listed there are up from what I remember a year or two ago.

 

[Paul New]

I checked the shen website and I feel the prices listed there are up from what I remember a year or two ago.

Up some, but not as much as I expected. They are up maybe 15-20%, just guessing, from 25 years ago?

Many manufactuers are asking triple over that period.

Just an impression. I haven’t looked closely.

 

[John Sprague]

I checked the shen website and I feel the prices listed there are up from what I remember a year or two ago.

Hi Jmpiwonka. The pricing on the website is the current, post-tariff price.

Regarding the ladder bracing, it resurfaced briefly, maybe 20 basses, and we went back to the X-brace mainly because we had decades into it so it's a very refined-by-experience design for us. The X was inspired by among other things the work of Al Jackstad and the boys at the Cincinnati Bass Cellar. Robertsons, on the other hand, swears by ladder bracing. So there you go, two top authorities with different opinions. They all work. If the back hasn't popped yet, you should be able to trust it just fine.
Good luck!

 

[Jason Sypher]

I support buying a bass you feel one-hundred percent good about. If that means waiting a bit longer or even paying a bit more, get the one you want. Don’t settle when it comes to instruments. That said, personally I’d be suspicious of reinventing the wheel. When you say “traditional” bracing over the new X bracing I’d be inclined towards the method used for three hundred plus years. It doesn’t mean I’m not open to a new construction concept, I am, but I’d be inclined towards the former. Regarding cracks, open seams, scratches and such I say that these things will always exist and don’t really matter that much. A carved bass is going to need a yearly maintenance visit, seams will definitely open up as they are designed to do. It’s a quick cheap fix, one you can even learn to do yourself. Don’t get too caught up in the bracing question. Buy a bass that’s healthy, sounds and plays the way you like. Pay what you need to to get the one you love. Get insurance. Maintain it with a trusted luthier. The rest should be all music.

 

[Mark_T]

I support buying a bass you feel one-hundred percent good about. If that means waiting a bit longer or even paying a bit more, get the one you want. Don’t settle when it comes to instruments. That said, personally I’d be suspicious of reinventing the wheel. When you say “traditional” bracing over the new X bracing I’d be inclined towards the method used for three hundred plus years. It doesn’t mean I’m not open to a new construction concept, I am, but I’d be inclined towards the former. Regarding cracks, open seams, scratches and such I say that these things will always exist and don’t really matter that much. A carved bass is going to need a yearly maintenance visit, seams will definitely open up as they are designed to do. It’s a quick cheap fix, one you can even learn to do yourself. Don’t get too caught up in the bracing question. Buy a bass that’s healthy, sounds and plays the way you like. Pay what you need to to get the one you love. Get insurance. Maintain it with a trusted luthier. The rest should be all music.

I play a newer flatback bass crafted by a master luthier. It has a variation on the X bracing. Lots of basses with ladder bracing have survived hundreds of years. Many haven't. The difference has a lot to do with the quality of the wood and initial construction but as @Jason Sypher says, the care is the vital part.

I think the basses that survived were the ones that belonged to owners with the desire and means to have them in the hands of skilled luthiers who could address problems that cropped up without damaging or diminishing the basses. Unlike Jason, if I were designing my dream flatback, I'd probably ask a luthier to look into the Matthew Tucker system. But I'm not losing a wink of sleep over the X brace in my current bass, and I wouldn't not buy a great bass that happened to have ladder bracing - again, like Jason says "buy a bass you feel one-hundred percent good about".